Who`s Right......bisley Or Flo??

[David Aiken 253]

I have 600 round of expanding .22lr ammunition on my FAC for vermin control and to zero in.

 

When I was going to Bisley last year for a BASC range day I noticed my booking email made it clear solid ammunition only, no expanding. I rang Bisley to see if I could buy solid ammunition while on my range day, their response was "I`d no need as my FAC was for expanding so I could purchase expanding OR solid at any gunshop. It was having a FAC stating just solid which stopped the purchase of expanding.

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

[walshie 2,804]

Section 2 of my FAC is clearly headed "Ammunition including expanding ammunition and expanding missiles", as I'm sure yours is.

 

Then condition 7 says I may purchase or acquire expanding ammo. Without this condition, you (or I) could only buy solid. Take your ticket to any RFD and he'll happily sell you either.

 

As for increasing your allowance for the odd range day, it doesn't surprise me, but it's not really a problem as you can buy more there if needed. You would only need the total increased anyway, not specifics of solid or expanding.

 

Bisley = Correct.

 

FEO = Talking out of his armpit.

[charlie caller 3,654]

Totally agree with Walshie here, the man with target only on his ticket can only buy solid, you can if you wish buy solid to shoot rabbits etc, Bisley =correct feo=wrong.

[David Aiken 253]

I did think as much, but do we dare challenge our FEO?

[walshie 2,804]

I did think as much, but do we dare challenge our FEO?

 

Of course. Try asking him nicely, then he he doesn't see the light, contact the licensing manager (normally an Inspector)

[CharlieT 32]

 

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

 

From your conversation with your FEO, do you think perhaps your FEO got the impression that you were enquiring about you target shooting rather than buying solids for general use.

 

If this is the case, then your FEO would have been correct in saying that you can't take part in target shooting unless your FAC is so conditioned and you can't get it conditioned for target shooting unless you are a member of a club.

[David Aiken 253]

 

 

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

 

From your conversation with your FEO, do you think perhaps your FEO got the impression that you were enquiring about you target shooting rather than buying solids for general use.

 

If this is the case, then your FEO would have been correct in saying that you can't take part in target shooting unless your FAC is so conditioned and you can't get it conditioned for target shooting unless you are a member of a club.

 

I don't understand? How can I not be able to take part in target shooting unless my FAC is so conditioned? What if, as with many of the probationary members I have no FAC at all?

[CharlieT 32]

 

 

 

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

 

From your conversation with your FEO, do you think perhaps your FEO got the impression that you were enquiring about you target shooting rather than buying solids for general use.

 

If this is the case, then your FEO would have been correct in saying that you can't take part in target shooting unless your FAC is so conditioned and you can't get it conditioned for target shooting unless you are a member of a club.

 

I don't understand? How can I not be able to take part in target shooting unless my FAC is so conditioned? What if, as with many of the probationary members I have no FAC at all?

 

It's your rifles I'm talking about, not you personally.

Those that use their own rifles for target shooting, as opposed to just zeroing in and practice at their club, must have their rifles conditioned for target shooting. It has always been so.

 

Probationary members are permitted to use club rifles and these rifles are so conditioned.

 

Back to your initial question, you can buy solid and expanding ammo.

[Alsone 789]

 

 

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

 

From your conversation with your FEO, do you think perhaps your FEO got the impression that you were enquiring about you target shooting rather than buying solids for general use.

 

If this is the case, then your FEO would have been correct in saying that you can't take part in target shooting unless your FAC is so conditioned and you can't get it conditioned for target shooting unless you are a member of a club.

 

 

Very good point Charlie.

 

But I'm not sure there is any general use for solids as you'd fall foul of humane requirements against live prey.

 

It's all a bit of a catch 22 in my opinion. The law says you can zero your rifle using expanding ammunition, but if the range won't allow it's use then...

 

Equally, the law says you can't use your rifle for target shooting unless it's conditioned, so any target shooting has to be restricted to zeroing....

 

I'm really not sure how you'd stand trying to claim you were zeroing with solid ammo as you're not using the ammo you need the rifle zero'd for.

 

Seems to me it's the rules at Bisley that are at fault, (although I know many other gun clubs have the same rules). Maybe they need separate bookings for zeroing as opposed to general range use with such activities restricted to say 2 or 3 bookings a year to prevent recurrent use of expanding ammo. My guess is they're worried about being caught with shooters using expanding ammo and having their range licence revoked, in the event it can't be proven those shooters were zeroing as opposed to target shooting.

[walshie 2,804]

 

 

 

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

 

From your conversation with your FEO, do you think perhaps your FEO got the impression that you were enquiring about you target shooting rather than buying solids for general use.

 

If this is the case, then your FEO would have been correct in saying that you can't take part in target shooting unless your FAC is so conditioned and you can't get it conditioned for target shooting unless you are a member of a club.

 

 

Very good point Charlie.

 

But I'm not sure there is any general use for solids as you'd fall foul of humane requirements against live prey.

 

It's all a bit of a catch 22 in my opinion. The law says you can zero your rifle using expanding ammunition, but if the range won't allow it's use then...

 

Equally, the law says you can't use your rifle for target shooting unless it's conditioned, so any target shooting has to be restricted to zeroing....

 

I'm really not sure how you'd stand trying to claim you were zeroing with solid ammo as you're not using the ammo you need the rifle zero'd for.

 

Seems to me it's the rules at Bisley that are at fault, (although I know many other gun clubs have the same rules). Maybe they need separate bookings for zeroing as opposed to general range use with such activities restricted to say 2 or 3 bookings a year to prevent recurrent use of expanding ammo. My guess is they're worried about being caught with shooters using expanding ammo and having their range licence revoked, in the event it can't be proven those shooters were zeroing as opposed to target shooting.

 

 

There is no requirement to use expanding ammo on live prey. Look at the airgun boys.

 

You can use expanding ammo at Bisley - just not for competitions.

[Alsone 789]

 

There is no requirement to use expanding ammo on live prey. Look at the airgun boys.

 

You can use expanding ammo at Bisley - just not for competitions.

 

 

I think you're on pretty shaky ground shooting live prey with solid ammo though Walshie, airguns aside.

 

Thanks for clearing the ammo point up at Bisley. The OP gave the impression there was a blanket ban. If he's wanting to competition shoot with his own rifle, then that puts a whole new complexion on the debate.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Alsone

[Deker 3,453]

 

 

 

 

I had a conversation with my FLO today and as I now shoot target I wished to increase my ammunition allocation to accommodate purchasing solid as well as my usual expanding ammunition. His response was a definite NO! Unless I was a full member of a target shooting club!

 

Who`s right? My FLO or Bisley?

 

From your conversation with your FEO, do you think perhaps your FEO got the impression that you were enquiring about you target shooting rather than buying solids for general use.

 

If this is the case, then your FEO would have been correct in saying that you can't take part in target shooting unless your FAC is so conditioned and you can't get it conditioned for target shooting unless you are a member of a club.

 

 

Very good point Charlie.

 

But I'm not sure there is any general use for solids as you'd fall foul of humane requirements against live prey.

 

It's all a bit of a catch 22 in my opinion. The law says you can zero your rifle using expanding ammunition, but if the range won't allow it's use then...

 

Equally, the law says you can't use your rifle for target shooting unless it's conditioned, so any target shooting has to be restricted to zeroing....

 

I'm really not sure how you'd stand trying to claim you were zeroing with solid ammo as you're not using the ammo you need the rifle zero'd for.

 

Seems to me it's the rules at Bisley that are at fault, (although I know many other gun clubs have the same rules). Maybe they need separate bookings for zeroing as opposed to general range use with such activities restricted to say 2 or 3 bookings a year to prevent recurrent use of expanding ammo. My guess is they're worried about being caught with shooters using expanding ammo and having their range licence revoked, in the event it can't be proven those shooters were zeroing as opposed to target shooting.

 

 

We used solid .22lr for rabbits etc for generations, it is frankly only in more recent years that expanding has become the norm, a well placed solid .22lr is far more effective than any air rifle and where is the campaign to ban air rifles on humane grounds?!

 

You are getting yourself all mixed up here, anyone with an expanding ammo condition can buy solid and zero with either, in the field or potentially on a range.

 

Whatever any range may allow or not is up to them (within the law).

 

However the Law also states target work is not a good reason for buying expanding, but you may (potentially) use it for zeroing.

 

A target condition is required for Target shooting, and this means being a member of an approved club. I have always found this one a bit strange as you may have an Open FAC and wonder rounds the field all day, but can't use a range, but I believe it is for a more basic reason, that of stopping anyone acquiring a rifle for target use without demonstrating good reason. Just happens that in reverse it seems a bit odd.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Deker

[Deker 3,453]

 

 

There is no requirement to use expanding ammo on live prey. Look at the airgun boys.

 

You can use expanding ammo at Bisley - just not for competitions.

 

 

I think you're on pretty shaky ground shooting live prey with solid ammo though Walshie, airguns aside.

 

Thanks for clearing the ammo point up at Bisley. The OP gave the impression there was a blanket ban. If he's wanting to competition shoot with his own rifle, then that puts a whole new complexion on the debate.

 

 

Alsone, take a step back, he isn't on shaky ground at all, your statement is way to big a generalisation, for instance, I rather favour solid ammo on the Boar, and so do many others with their shotgun slugs as well!

 

How many prey species can you name that the law makes Expanding Mandatory?

[Alsone 789]

Deker, I know full well that anyone with a certificate can buy solid ammo.

 

My only point of contention is it's use on live prey. Times have changed as you have pointed out and using solid ammo on pretty much anything other than maybe mice and rats, is going to be very hard to justify in law. If you are seen to cause wounding to eg rabbits and it's discovered that you were using solid ammo when expanding was available, then good luck proving you weren't causing necessary suffering. It's worth remembering here that it's not only firearms law that binds you here....

[Deker 3,453]

Deker, I know full well that anyone with a certificate can buy solid ammo.

 

My only point of contention is it's use on live prey. Times have changed as you have pointed out and using solid ammo on pretty much anything other than maybe mice and rats, is going to be very hard to justify in law. If you are seen to cause wounding to eg rabbits and it's discovered that you were using solid ammo when expanding was available, then good luck proving you weren't causing necessary suffering. It's worth remembering here that it's not only firearms law that binds you here....

 

Open your eyes, who would have any chance of winning any case of causing unnecessary suffering to a rabbit etc using 100ft lb (or more) .22lr Solid when nobody bats an eyelid at 12ft lb air rifle, and you are going backwards on your statement in #11 already, saying rats and mice are fine!

 

So is 2900Ft Lb of energy with a solid on a Boar not Humane?

 

Like I said, take a step back and think about it a bit more, and how many species did you come up with that the LAW states Expanding only?

Edited January 16, 2016 by Deker