Feedng

[Country Joe 1,411]

I don't change my dogs feeding at all. They still get their raw beef, rabbit or fish with a handful of Gain 28...a wee bit of brown pasta or rice and some veg. They'll either store the excess as body fat...which can be run off when they start again or sh1t it out

The raw meat you are feeding has good protein, so gain 20% is what i would feed, its up to you but feeding 28% on top of Beef, Rabbit and fish is a lot of protein.

[AirgunGuy 362]

 

I don't change my dogs feeding at all. They still get their raw beef, rabbit or fish with a handful of Gain 28...a wee bit of brown pasta or rice and some veg. They'll either store the excess as body fat...which can be run off when they start again or sh1t it out

 

The raw meat you are feeding has good protein, so gain 20% is what i would feed, its up to you but feeding 28% on top of Beef, Rabbit and fish is a lot of protein.

I've often wondered about that Joe and I understand what you're saying but with Gain 28 and Redmills Racer being cheap dog foods, surely the quality of protein in them is poor ie sourced from veg etc??? I use the complete as a mixer and they don't get a lot...a max of 30% of their food :-) Edited July 15, 2013 by AirgunGuy

[Country Joe 1,411]

I don't think it matters what they use for making up the protein, as if it says on the bag 28% then that should what it will be.

What they use, well thats a secret, I have emailed a few companies including Gain, and asked a simple question, what part of the Animal or Bird do you use, in your products.

I never received one answer, says a lot.

I spoke to Sean the rep from Gain about what Gain to use if adding meat, he did not push, as i told him i only had one Whippet. and he recommended if using Gain to use their Gain 20%.

[AirgunGuy 362]

It's a bit of a minefield all this feeding lark. I suppose I've adopted the same attitude to feeding the dogs as I had when I was weight training...cram as much protein in as possible...excess will be shit out. I've been feeding him like this since he was 1 (just turned 2) and never had any problems. I'm not sure if too much of something in a dogs meal can do them any harm! Maybe someone can shed light on this. 1 thing I have noticed is since starting feeding raw salmon a couple of months ago he has muscled up a little...whether that's just coincidence with him maturing or it's down to the fish I don't know. His coat is definitely better since adding the fish to his diet. I chop and change the protein source between raw beef, cooked rabbit and raw fish. 1 other is...it's difficult to judge his energy levels as I don't have the ground to put loads of game in front of him but to date he's done everything asked of him :-)

[sandymere 8,261]

Its come up a couple of times so a little on protein.

 

 

Protein is how amino acids are packed a bit like a house is made of bricks so protein is made of amino acids.

Vegetable proteins don’t commonly contain all the amino acids that are needed for grow and repair but animal protein does, so a mix of both is fine as the animal protein will fill in the gaps and the cereals etc bring their own positive.

.

It doesn’t matter where the protein comes from as long as it contains all the required amino acids in a usable form. So a well known feed is made from feathers, sounds awful but! That’s rather like saying that you refuse to use recycled paper just because the paper may have been made from a magazine you don’t like or you refuse to live in a house because the bricks were reclaimed from a terraced house and you only want ones from detached houses. Basically it makes no difference from where the amino acids come just that they are there.

 

What this means is that completes are all pretty much alike in that they will contain all the amino acids needed. I hasn’t got to be a posh one and even high cereal is fine as long as its balanced by animal protein in the required amounts and completes have to do that. If they didn’t then thousand of dogs would becoming very poorly quiet quickly.

 

I add in meat etc for two reasons, one is that working dogs need to carry out more repair and re growth than pets so need a slight boost to the essential amino acids and the addition of meat does that without to much bulk and secondly as I believe in variety in a diet the so I also add in vegetables, both bolster the micro nutrients such as vitamins/minerals that may have been reduced by the processing of a complete.

At the end of the day meat/veg fills the gaps in the complete and the complete fills the gaps in the meat.

 

It is ideal to feed meat along with pasta, brown bread, veggies etc and as long as you got the balance right probably better than using a complete but most get the balance wrong and in truth what’s wrong with the easy option. In the morning I pour some complete add in the meat, veggis etc etc and give to the dogs, they look good and work hard, job done.

 

Ps, Protein is not a good energy source so overfeeding is just adding bulk when the space could be used to supply a good source such as fat and carbs.

 

Edited July 15, 2013 by sandymere

[AirgunGuy 362]

Good post but only needed to read it once :-D

 

So basically what you're saying it's fine to feed a handful of complete with raw and veg etc?

 

So can a dog overdose on protein, carbs, fats etc or do they shit excess out? I know some of it will be stored as body fat!!!

[sandymere 8,261]

Good post but only needed to read it once :-D

 

So basically what you're saying it's fine to feed a handful of complete with raw and veg etc?

 

So can a dog overdose on protein, carbs, fats etc or do they shit excess out? I know some of it will be stored as body fat!!!

Yes feed complete with meat etc or if feeding a lot of meat then even old fashioned dog biscuits will supply a carb source. Meat isn’t high protein as its mostly water and ends up around 20% protein in its raw state. There is very little evidence for high protein diets even with puppies other than making a profit for someone.

 

 

As to overdose excess is stored as fat as you say although conversion from carbs/protein to fat is a little wasteful and results in waste chemicals although it shouldn’t be a major issue for a healthy dog. So they don’t exactly overdose unless one were to go to an extreme such as feeding nothing but fat.

 

The whole idea of balance is to supply what is needed in the easiest form for use ie fat is a good energy source for everyday pottering about so feed fat, protein is excellent for repair and growth so feed protein and carbs are what the body uses to power faster stuff so feed carbs. Then balance to the individual dogs needs, a husky during a long distance race wants very little carbs but lots of protein and fat, whereas a racing greyhound wants more carbohydrate but less protein.

 

Both you and your dog could just eat meat which would supply both protein and fat and your body would convert some of the fat into glucose but its a lot easier to break down some carbs so its better to eat carbs. Plus each also has other functions that are important but often overlooked such as fats and fat soluble vitamins, carbs supplying fibre and the glucose powering brain function etc etc.

 

Excess completes will cause lots of shit as only a small amount of the fibre etc will be used and the rest will feed gut bacteria which will multiply adding more bulk. A little fibre is a good thing but as with the rest it should be in the right amounts lol.

[AirgunGuy 362]

Ok that makes sense. So what roughly would the best %'s for a typical running dog? I understand there will be lots of different factors but I'm meaning typical or average ie...40% raw beef/raw salmon/cooked rabbit, 30% Gain 28, 20% brown pasta or rice and 10% veg? This is roughly what I aim for with mine ;-)

[sandymere 8,261]

It a bit of try to make an estimation with what you feed. Arleigh Reynolds, DVM, PhD, DACVN
Jill Cline, PhD suggest “ An appropriate feeding regime for sprint type canine athletes consists of a diet that contains approximately 25% calories from protein, 30% calories from fat and 45% calories from carbohydrates”.

 

 

So if you’re feeding butchers type meat you are combining protein and fat which gives 55% meat with the remainder carbs/vegtables. With game meat I'd add in extra fat

Edited July 15, 2013 by sandymere

[AirgunGuy 362]

I'm not far out then by the looks of it. What type fat do you use...lard, dripping etc?

[sandymere 8,261]

In truth I add what i've got as and when and use some codliver oil, get it from horse/farm store type places for around £20 a litre. , I use butchers waste as well as rabbit etc which is usually pretty fatty plus bone marrow is pretty much fat.

[Country Joe 1,411]

Was talking to a local Butcher makes up dog meat said it was Hearts etc from Abattoir

mixed with his own, not a great description, says its popular 75 Pence a pound.

will buy 5 pounds and see what its like.

[2Painless2btrue 11]

I've always been intrigued as to why commercial foods contain carbohydrates, probably coz it's cheap and bulky! Where, in nature would a wild dog get hold of carbohydrates? Fats and amino acids, yes! Protein and bone, yes! Wheat and rice? Not a chance! Dogs may be able to handle it but carbs are not natural food for them!

Edited July 16, 2013 by 2Painless2btrue

[sandymere 8,261]

I've always been intrigued as to why commercial foods contain carbohydrates, probably coz it's cheap and bulky! Where, in nature would a wild dog get hold of carbohydrates? Fats and amino acids, yes! Protein and bone, yes! Wheat and rice? Not a chance! Dogs may be able to handle it but carbs are not natural food for them!

I’d say they get carbs from the dog bowl same as the rest of their food!!!! Dogs by definition are domesticated not wild!

 

As to not natural versus, unnatural remember nature is pretty shite, parvo is natural vaccinations un-natural, google the naturalistic fallacy, and consider the problems with the idea that something if good if its natural but must be bad if its unnatural..

 

On a more serious note dogs get carbs from man and have for many thousands of years so it is perfectly "natural", Dogs have three gene variences from wolves that play an important role in the digestion of carb sources, just shows evolution in process, man and dog together, (the genes for the nerdy types AMY2B, MGAM and SGLT1).

But then of course wolves get plenty of carbs as well so that’s all perfectly "natural" too.

Edited July 17, 2013 by sandymere

[2Painless2btrue 11]

 

I've always been intrigued as to why commercial foods contain carbohydrates, probably coz it's cheap and bulky! Where, in nature would a wild dog get hold of carbohydrates? Fats and amino acids, yes! Protein and bone, yes! Wheat and rice? Not a chance! Dogs may be able to handle it but carbs are not natural food for them!

 

I’d say they get carbs from the dog bowl same as the rest of their food!!!! Dogs by definition are domesticated not wild!

 

As to not natural versus, unnatural remember nature is pretty shite, parvo is natural vaccinations un-natural, google the naturalistic fallacy, and consider the problems with the idea that something if good if its natural but must be bad if its unnatural..

 

On a more serious note dogs get carbs from man and have for many thousands of years so it is perfectly "natural", Dogs have three gene variences from wolves that play an important role in the digestion of carb sources, just shows evolution in process, man and dog together, (the genes for the nerdy types AMY2B, MGAM and SGLT1).

But then of course wolves get plenty of carbs as well so that’s all perfectly "natural" too.

Several interesting points there. I agree that dogs can digest Carbs, as obviously can Wolves, but it's not true that Carbs are plentiful in nature. Even primitive hunter-gatherer humans find it rare except in fruit and prepared roots. Regarding Parvo, antibodies to Parvo have been found in the majority of wild Wolves tested.... It seems to be less deadly to them than to our domesticated dogs! Maybe their immune response is better? Diet related?