Bull Breed Owner's..

[The Duncan 802]

Nothing wrong with having some passion about a subject Gnash, and I do respect you for it.

1. I had friends with PBT's before the ban and they had some greys. I got to know the dogs fairly well, good and bad.

2. I'm not looking for a perfect family pet. I feel any dog can make a good family pet, but I'm not after a pot-licker and nor is the wife who's wanted one for years (also an experienced dog lady). This is all hypothetical anyway, as in the states, a pbt that we would get would be hunting as well as being a family pet.

I've got no qualms about saying this hypothetical pit bull would be our first, just as we had to have our first staff, first ridgeback, first rotty, first GSD etc. If you can handle, train and understand dogs, dealing with the first of any breed isn't a problem is it?

You must have had a first pbt at some point - you weren't born having had one, after all.

 

Cheers

 

Duncan

 

I think the grey you refer to is probably blue.....however its not a colour associated with the apbt more a showbred amstaff type thing....you say you was around the breed 20 years ago and there wasnt any blues around then certainly not from performance stock.

Anyway i feel i should probably apologise,you sound a good responsible dog owner and im sure you would do just fine with one id certainly rather someone like yourself own one than the the paki/street hoodlum type that seem to have got their hands on them lately.

My problem is i still see the breed in all its old glory when the reality is 95% of the breed is a watered down version of the breed i loved so i should probably have let it go by now ....i guess its like a woman you once loved and shared time and grew with even though you cant have her you dont want anyone else to have her either :laugh:

However i do think ive got a pretty deep insight into these dogs and can see where problems arise......one problem being a point that was made earlier comparing to Dalmations etc.......These apbt,s around us today are only 5 or 6 generations removed from the dogs that came out of the pit and made there name there.....dogs like Jeep,Mayday,Chinaman,Tombstone,Redboy,Alligator were dogs from very recent in historical terms,barely 30/40 years......and these dogs are in the back of todays dogs pedigrees so the source of todays dogs still have a very fresh and rich genetic heritage of dogs bred purely based on how they could fight NOT how they performed as family pet dogs......that makes them different from other dogs bred for purpose such as Dalmations who are much further down the line etc......Put a Dalmation next to a horse and cart and it wont know what to do......put an apbt ( even a crap one ) next to another apbt and it will instinctively know exactly what to do !...........this is something i feel needs to be kept at the forefront of a potential owners mind.....there are so many reasons why they do not make good family pet dogs i just dont see the point in people getting a purpose bred dog then turning it into something else....get the right dog in the first place.....anyway like i say todays dogs are a very diluted form of the real thing....and the real thing you wont get your hands on anyway as that 5% left are mostly in safe and capable hands.....good luck to you either way

Thanks gnasher, no worries mate.

As I said it's all very hypothetical at the moment in any case.

Are the pbt's across the pond close to the original bred dogs? You can only select from what's available.

Cheers

Duncan.

[123456 146]

You missed my fav there gnasher, bolio. What a speciman

[gnasher16 31,499]

While i accept im probably too much of a purist i do believe the further you take a sporting dog away from its sport the more you dilute what it essentially is...........take fighting dogs away from the fight over enough generations and they cease to be fighting dogs ( proven fact ).......take racing dogs away from the race over enough generations and they cease to be racing dogs............personally i dont feel i have the authority to compromise years and years of selective breeding before me,purely for my benefit.....but each to their own.

Edited February 28, 2012 by gnasher16

[The Duncan 802]

While i accept im probably too much of a purist i do believe the further you take a sporting dog away from its sport the more you dilute what it essentially is...........take fighting dogs away from the fight over enough generations and they cease to be fighting dogs ( proven fact ).......take racing dogs away from the race over enough generations and they cease to be racing dogs............personally i dont feel i have the authority to compromise years and years of selective breeding before me,purely for my benefit.....but each to their own.

Man has selectively bred animals etc for his own benefit since time immemorial Gnasher. Without this, Pitbulls, Greyhounds, Rhodesian Ridgebacks etc etc etc simply wouldn't exist.

Puritanism has its place, but sometimes is good to take the wider view. How else did we get the Lurcher?

 

atb

Duncan

[Casso 1,261]

the problem with some of those dogs in general is that the work they were bred to do is changing or has to change, the hound was not originally bred to race it was bred to catch , it has evolved into an animal bred solely to run and not catch,

the pit bred for combat , a process through which a dog needed to be bred to have plenty of heart, and that big heart can be put to other uses as hog hunters in the states have shown, some of them wont keep a dog aggressive pit, just wont tolerate it , the pit can be a very adaptable animal given the right work which allow him to express his drive,

Edited February 28, 2012 by Casso

[The Duncan 802]

the problem with some of those dogs in general is that the work they were bred to do is changing or has to change, the hound was not originally bred to race it was bred to catch , it has evolved into an animal bred solely to run and not catch,

the pit bred for combat , a process through which a dog needed to be bred to have plenty of heart, and that big heart can be put to other uses as hog hunters in the states have shown, some of them wont keep a dog aggressive pit, just wont tolerate it , the pit can be a very adaptable animal given the right work which allow him to express his drive,

The heart and drive of the pit id something I'd want to use for hogs.

Funny how the pastime of something I am dead against (dog fighting) could give rise to something I approve of (hog hunting).

Similarly, war ( an ugly notion) gave rise to things like the Spitfire, a thing of beauty.

[gnasher16 31,499]

Man has selectively bred animals etc for his own benefit since time immemorial Gnasher. Without this, Pitbulls, Greyhounds, Rhodesian Ridgebacks etc etc etc simply wouldn't exist.

Puritanism has its place, but sometimes is good to take the wider view. How else did we get the Lurcher?

 

atb

Duncan

 

The thing is Dunc....man has bred dogs supposedly for the better....not for the worse............the Lurcher is a fine animal bred from a cross of breeds whos great qualities were utilised in order to create a fine animal......you wouldnt use a Great Dane or a Corgi to make a Lurcher would you because they dont possess the traits needed......Likewise the apbt doesnt possess any of the qualities in abundance needed to create a good pet dog .....none whatsoever.........so this would just be backward breeding and i dont feel that can ever be condoned............now if you wanted to create a form of working/sporting dog where the apbt,s qualities could be utilised to their maximum potential then i could understand it.........but this thing of making what is essentially a rough old fighting dog into a loving family pet i just dont understand that when there is literally hundreds of breeds to choose from for that.................it always puts me in mind of these deranged middle aged women you hear about who write to serial killer prisoners on death row telling them how they can " see the goodness " in them and how they can " reform them with love "...........why theres thousands of men to choose from why specifically choose one thats unsuitable just so that they can say " i changed him ".

In your other post you say you are dead against dog matching but approve of hog hunting.....................then why get a pure fighting dog to hunt a hog why not just get a hog hunting dog in the first place.......also,i wont go deep into it or i,ll be here all day but the drive and heart you talk about as a quality in a pit bull is a very different drive and heart it takes for a dog to catch a boar..............not to say they cant or wont it just annoys me in some ways that folk always want to dip into the qualities a pit bull possesses yet most folk find those qualities pretty disgusting when they are all in the same dog.

Edited February 29, 2012 by gnasher16

[123456 146]

What you forget gnash is most have not been in contact with any form of apbt with a pedigree but just ones there mates own and all they'll know is its a 'pit'

[bird 10,014]

Man has selectively bred animals etc for his own benefit since time immemorial Gnasher. Without this, Pitbulls, Greyhounds, Rhodesian Ridgebacks etc etc etc simply wouldn't exist.

Puritanism has its place, but sometimes is good to take the wider view. How else did we get the Lurcher?

 

atb

Duncan

 

The thing is Dunc....man has bred dogs supposedly for the better....not for the worse............the Lurcher is a fine animal bred from a cross of breeds whos great qualities were utilised in order to create a fine animal......you wouldnt use a Great Dane or a Corgi to make a Lurcher would you because they dont possess the traits needed......Likewise the apbt doesnt possess any of the qualities in abundance needed to create a good pet dog .....none whatsoever.........so this would just be backward breeding and i dont feel that can ever be condoned............now if you wanted to create a form of working/sporting dog where the apbt,s qualities could be utilised to their maximum potential then i could understand it.........but this thing of making what is essentially a rough old fighting dog into a loving family pet i just dont understand that when there is literally hundreds of breeds to choose from for that.................it always puts me in mind of these deranged middle aged women you hear about who write to serial killer prisoners on death row telling them how they can " see the goodness " in them and how they can " reform them with love "...........why theres thousands of men to choose from why specifically choose one thats unsuitable just so that they can say " i changed him ".

In your other post you say you are dead against dog matching but approve of hog hunting.....................then why get a pure fighting dog to hunt a hog why not just get a hog hunting dog in the first place.......also,i wont go deep into it or i,ll be here all day but the drive and heart you talk about as a quality in a pit bull is a very different drive and heart it takes for a dog to catch a boar..............not to say they cant or wont it just annoys me in some ways that folk always want to dip into the qualities a pit bull possesses yet most folk find those qualities pretty disgusting when they are all in the same dog.

good answer that

[The Duncan 802]

Man has selectively bred animals etc for his own benefit since time immemorial Gnasher. Without this, Pitbulls, Greyhounds, Rhodesian Ridgebacks etc etc etc simply wouldn't exist.

Puritanism has its place, but sometimes is good to take the wider view. How else did we get the Lurcher?

 

atb

Duncan

 

The thing is Dunc....man has bred dogs supposedly for the better....not for the worse............the Lurcher is a fine animal bred from a cross of breeds whos great qualities were utilised in order to create a fine animal......you wouldnt use a Great Dane or a Corgi to make a Lurcher would you because they dont possess the traits needed......Likewise the apbt doesnt possess any of the qualities in abundance needed to create a good pet dog .....none whatsoever.........so this would just be backward breeding and i dont feel that can ever be condoned............now if you wanted to create a form of working/sporting dog where the apbt,s qualities could be utilised to their maximum potential then i could understand it.........but this thing of making what is essentially a rough old fighting dog into a loving family pet i just dont understand that when there is literally hundreds of breeds to choose from for that.................it always puts me in mind of these deranged middle aged women you hear about who write to serial killer prisoners on death row telling them how they can " see the goodness " in them and how they can " reform them with love "...........why theres thousands of men to choose from why specifically choose one thats unsuitable just so that they can say " i changed him ".

In your other post you say you are dead against dog matching but approve of hog hunting.....................then why get a pure fighting dog to hunt a hog why not just get a hog hunting dog in the first place.......also,i wont go deep into it or i,ll be here all day but the drive and heart you talk about as a quality in a pit bull is a very different drive and heart it takes for a dog to catch a boar..............not to say they cant or wont it just annoys me in some ways that folk always want to dip into the qualities a pit bull possesses yet most folk find those qualities pretty disgusting when they are all in the same dog.

good answer that

Really, hog hunting and dog fighting bear little or no relation. Holding and/or baying a feral pig isn't anything like dog fighting is is? Not from what I've seen anyway.

I don't particularly want to re-open the debate on pits as pets; I think we have each others views on that subject already.

 

A dog, is a dog. They all have the same attributes really, just different levels and proportions dependant on the breeding.

[GrCh 856]

a real pitbull terrier would be wasted as a pet just like good terriers\lurchers.

[Casso 1,261]

Drive in a dog any dog is a drive to make contact , be it with a sleeve, a bird, a rabbit , a dog or a hog,

 

dogs are of course bred with certain attributes which specifically are in keeping with the temperament of the animal, sight hounds are very sight oriented so they are largely sensitive to movement of the small furry type and since they can be switched on in drive so easily they can be also switched off with relative ease in comparison to other breeds,

 

but we all know cases where young running dogs have to be encouraged to chase, a lot of lads start a young dog with a more experienced animal to get him going,

why should this be the case ,? because like a lot of dogs bred with drive in their hearts, it needs to be channeled into a specific purpose, in this case chasing rabbits and such like, we discourage chasing stock animals and encourage the small animal chase, and it works, its drive is still a drive to make contact and mouth the intended target in keeping with the owners wishes

 

Take the Sheppard breeds in specific the German and Belgium dogs many of which have left their original working roots behind many moons ago, plenty of drive in their hearts which has successfully been adapted to other work , it the same drive but all thats changed is its been manipulated by man for his own use, drive is very adaptable it just needs to be focused into a certain area, so what we get is a highly driven dog still bred to take instruction,once for herding sheep, but who now sees his prey as a sleeve on the arm of the helper, and its all the same drive,

 

The problem once again is when we equate the wrong doers in human society with certain breeds of dog, we cant break out of that link with dogs having the capacity for evil and wrongdoing and madness, but we couldn't be further from the truth , with the dog all it is, is a drive to make contact in whatever form that takes,

 

fear and misunderstanding of dogs is a death sentence for them in society today, the failure to understand the true intentions of a dogs drive to bring it out and mold it in a way that the dog can find a relief from internal tension, and its that tension in the dog that people see when it boils over into unwanted behavior, they dont see drive they only see rage and equate it with human rage,,

the man who understands the drive energy in a dog, any dog and uses it to make a animal social, or the man who cant understand the motives and calls it madness, as things stand at the minute the latter of the two are running the show, and are shouting the loudest ,and what its telling us, is to mistrust to most loyal social friendly animal who ever decided to throw his lot in with man,

[gnasher16 31,499]

Drive in a dog any dog is a drive to make contact , be it with a sleeve, a bird, a rabbit , a dog or a hog,

 

dogs are of course bred with certain attributes which specifically are in keeping with the temperament of the animal, sight hounds are very sight oriented so they are largely sensitive to movement of the small furry type and since they can be switched on in drive so easily they can be also switched off with relative ease in comparison to other breeds,

 

but we all know cases where young running dogs have to be encouraged to chase, a lot of lads start a young dog with a more experienced animal to get him going,

why should this be the case ,? because like a lot of dogs bred with drive in their hearts, it needs to be channeled into a specific purpose, in this case chasing rabbits and such like, we discourage chasing stock animals and encourage the small animal chase, and it works, its drive is still a drive to make contact and mouth the intended target in keeping with the owners wishes

 

Take the Sheppard breeds in specific the German and Belgium dogs many of which have left their original working roots behind many moons ago, plenty of drive in their hearts which has successfully been adapted to other work , it the same drive but all thats changed is its been manipulated by man for his own use, drive is very adaptable it just needs to be focused into a certain area, so what we get is a highly driven dog still bred to take instruction,once for herding sheep, but who now sees his prey as a sleeve on the arm of the helper, and its all the same drive,

 

The problem once again is when we equate the wrong doers in human society with certain breeds of dog, we cant break out of that link with dogs having the capacity for evil and wrongdoing and madness, but we couldn't be further from the truth , with the dog all it is, is a drive to make contact in whatever form that takes,

 

fear and misunderstanding of dogs is a death sentence for them in society today, the failure to understand the true intentions of a dogs drive to bring it out and mold it in a way that the dog can find a relief from internal tension, and its that tension in the dog that people see when it boils over into unwanted behavior, they dont see drive they only see rage and equate it with human rage,,

the man who understands the drive energy in a dog, any dog and uses it to make a animal social, or the man who cant understand the motives and calls it madness, as things stand at the minute the latter of the two are running the show, and are shouting the loudest ,and what its telling us, is to mistrust to most loyal social friendly animal who ever decided to throw his lot in with man,

 

All sounds lovely in theory

[blan89 159]

Drive in a dog any dog is a drive to make contact , be it with a sleeve, a bird, a rabbit , a dog or a hog,

 

dogs are of course bred with certain attributes which specifically are in keeping with the temperament of the animal, sight hounds are very sight oriented so they are largely sensitive to movement of the small furry type and since they can be switched on in drive so easily they can be also switched off with relative ease in comparison to other breeds,

 

but we all know cases where young running dogs have to be encouraged to chase, a lot of lads start a young dog with a more experienced animal to get him going,

why should this be the case ,? because like a lot of dogs bred with drive in their hearts, it needs to be channeled into a specific purpose, in this case chasing rabbits and such like, we discourage chasing stock animals and encourage the small animal chase, and it works, its drive is still a drive to make contact and mouth the intended target in keeping with the owners wishes

 

Take the Sheppard breeds in specific the German and Belgium dogs many of which have left their original working roots behind many moons ago, plenty of drive in their hearts which has successfully been adapted to other work , it the same drive but all thats changed is its been manipulated by man for his own use, drive is very adaptable it just needs to be focused into a certain area, so what we get is a highly driven dog still bred to take instruction,once for herding sheep, but who now sees his prey as a sleeve on the arm of the helper, and its all the same drive,

 

The problem once again is when we equate the wrong doers in human society with certain breeds of dog, we cant break out of that link with dogs having the capacity for evil and wrongdoing and madness, but we couldn't be further from the truth , with the dog all it is, is a drive to make contact in whatever form that takes,

 

fear and misunderstanding of dogs is a death sentence for them in society today, the failure to understand the true intentions of a dogs drive to bring it out and mold it in a way that the dog can find a relief from internal tension, and its that tension in the dog that people see when it boils over into unwanted behavior, they dont see drive they only see rage and equate it with human rage,,

the man who understands the drive energy in a dog, any dog and uses it to make a animal social, or the man who cant understand the motives and calls it madness, as things stand at the minute the latter of the two are running the show, and are shouting the loudest ,and what its telling us, is to mistrust to most loyal social friendly animal who ever decided to throw his lot in with man,

that's an interesting post.

 

but let me put it this way,all animals are a product of their genes and their environment,we have manipulated dogs in lots of ways,by altering their genetic codes through selective breeding.

 

are you seriously saying the genetic codes of a dog cannot be altered in such a way that it becomes inclined to fight other dogs?

[Casso 1,261]

its not a theory its out there for everyone to see, but we just dont look for it,

 

blan as you said yourself animals are a product of genes and environment, the drive in the genes is too make contact with something ,we then create the environment for the dog to express his drive energy in what will become a natural process for the dog when channeled ,

 

we have highly driven dogs at work in society controlled by nothing more than a bouncy ball kept by its handler, or access to piece of fabric worn on an arm , so how does that work??