Clearing misconceptions

[Mosby 355]

I think there are some prejudices about what americans expect from our dogs that I would like to clear up.

 

The first of which is that every American wants a hard dog. This is not true. Americans who hunt regularly may have a use for a hard dog here and there but that is not what all of us care to hunt or breed from. People who hunt regularly and some of us who hunt for trade in produce or for money, need a dog that can be hunted not sit in the kennel or on the chain healing. If a dog is only useful one day out of 20 or 30 it is not very useful. Is it?

I think this misconception of Americans comes from the bulldog guys and the chicken guys who were some of the first to obtain patterdales or english bred dogs in America. These men like bloodsports. I'm not stating an opinion for or against blood sports but I can state my opinion that throwing a dog on already found or trapped game is not hunting. The guys who want extremely hard dogs and only extremely hard dogs, generally do not hunt that often, but they love a fight. Even my friends with hard dogs wish their dogs were softer. But a good dog is a good dog so the hard ones stick around for what they are useful for. Not saying a hard dog doesn't have a use. I want it cleared up that some Americans do breed for hunting and not just fighting.

 

Second misconception is that all Americans want very small dogs. This comes from the groundhog hunters needing (?) an extremely small dog. Groundhogs are only hunted in a portion of the united states. Dogs of the size for groundhogs are useless in many parts of the united states. We have an assortment of game in all different sizes for a terrier. From coon over forty pounds to coon under ten pounds. Badger, Red fox, Grey fox, otter, nutria, groundhog, beaver, rock chuck. Our game can weigh in at 70 pounds (beaver) or 6 pounds (groundhog). Everyone I talk to thinks we need very small dogs. Around here there have been dogs over thirty pounds that could make it to ground. We also have holes, just in my hunting ground, too small for a 14 pound dog. Americans have use for all different sizes of dogs. We don't all breed down our dogs to below 12 pounds.

 

The third and last misconception goes both ways from one culture to another. Pay attention that the slang of hunting in one area is not confused to mean the same thing in all areas. I just realized this month that just within the boundaries of America we use different slang for hunting. In some parts a hard terrier is not known as hard but as "fighty" which to another may mean the dog fight with other dogs (which it does not mean this). One person may call a dog a cull or a cur or a plug all which mean the same thing. How I came to the realization that some things can be lost in translation even from one english speaker to another is when I described what I like in a dog and mentioned "I want the dog to hold the game til I get there or dig to it". When my friends and I say "Hold" it means the game did not move. The dog could be baying it, biting it, mixing it up... Whatever the case, the game was "held" in one spot. But I realized that a hearer of me saying "Hold", or "Held" could interpret it as the dog came to grips with the game and never let go til I got or get there.

I learned some new lingo from reading on here but it never registered to me that could be speaking in terms that don't mean the same thing to others.

 

Anyhow folks, I'm sure these are not all the misconceptions but these are some I've run into. Good hunting folks of all countries.

[uru 341]

:/ Edited February 10, 2012 by uru

[tomano1 80]

:) no1

[Tyla 3,179]

Good post, its easy to forget how big and varied it is over there

[Barrie 1,325]

I think there are some prejudices about what americans expect from our dogs that I would like to clear up.

 

The first of which is that every American wants a hard dog. This is not true. Americans who hunt regularly may have a use for a hard dog here and there but that is not what all of us care to hunt or breed from. People who hunt regularly and some of us who hunt for trade in produce or for money, need a dog that can be hunted not sit in the kennel or on the chain healing. If a dog is only useful one day out of 20 or 30 it is not very useful. Is it?

I think this misconception of Americans comes from the bulldog guys and the chicken guys who were some of the first to obtain patterdales or english bred dogs in America. These men like bloodsports. I'm not stating an opinion for or against blood sports but I can state my opinion that throwing a dog on already found or trapped game is not hunting. The guys who want extremely hard dogs and only extremely hard dogs, generally do not hunt that often, but they love a fight. Even my friends with hard dogs wish their dogs were softer. But a good dog is a good dog so the hard ones stick around for what they are useful for. Not saying a hard dog doesn't have a use. I want it cleared up that some Americans do breed for hunting and not just fighting.

 

Second misconception is that all Americans want very small dogs. This comes from the groundhog hunters needing (?) an extremely small dog. Groundhogs are only hunted in a portion of the united states. Dogs of the size for groundhogs are useless in many parts of the united states. We have an assortment of game in all different sizes for a terrier. From coon over forty pounds to coon under ten pounds. Badger, Red fox, Grey fox, otter, nutria, groundhog, beaver, rock chuck. Our game can weigh in at 70 pounds (beaver) or 6 pounds (groundhog). Everyone I talk to thinks we need very small dogs. Around here there have been dogs over thirty pounds that could make it to ground. We also have holes, just in my hunting ground, too small for a 14 pound dog. Americans have use for all different sizes of dogs. We don't all breed down our dogs to below 12 pounds.

 

The third and last misconception goes both ways from one culture to another. Pay attention that the slang of hunting in one area is not confused to mean the same thing in all areas. I just realized this month that just within the boundaries of America we use different slang for hunting. In some parts a hard terrier is not known as hard but as "fighty" which to another may mean the dog fight with other dogs (which it does not mean this). One person may call a dog a cull or a cur or a plug all which mean the same thing. How I came to the realization that some things can be lost in translation even from one english speaker to another is when I described what I like in a dog and mentioned "I want the dog to hold the game til I get there or dig to it". When my friends and I say "Hold" it means the game did not move. The dog could be baying it, biting it, mixing it up... Whatever the case, the game was "held" in one spot. But I realized that a hearer of me saying "Hold", or "Held" could interpret it as the dog came to grips with the game and never let go til I got or get there.

I learned some new lingo from reading on here but it never registered to me that could be speaking in terms that don't mean the same thing to others.

 

Anyhow folks, I'm sure these are not all the misconceptions but these are some I've run into. Good hunting folks of all countries.

 

 

Hi Mosby

Having been a regular visitor to the USA for the past 21 years, sometimes 2, 3 and 4 times a year. I've hunted a number of the different quarry species you mention with terriers, in a variety of different States, in lots of different company, along with some of your larger quarry with hounds (bear etc) and I think your description of terrierwork on that side of the “Pond” fairly reflects my own experience too.

 

If I might, I’d like to add a couple of observations of my own…. I was left with the distinct impression that the “pit bull” mentality seemed in the main to stem from a relatively small, but highly visible (websites, internet etc) group of “dog traders” (certainly not what I would call terrier men) who in conjunction with others of a similar nature here and in Europe imported and marketed working terriers (particularly Patterdales) as if they were miniature pit bulls. I’ve even seen them described as ideal “guard dogs for apartments”. It did little to enhance the reputation of the breed, or of terrierwork in general and did us all a great disservice, but in particular their own countrymen.

 

Secondly I always found field ethics amongst American terriermen and terrier WOMEN to be particularly high, especially when compared to some of the postings I’ve seen on occasions on this site and elsewhere. Maybe this stems from the fact that it’s commonplace to hunt under license in the USA and that the idiot fringe soon lose their license and their right to hunt. Unfortunately, over here it’s the idiots who will lose the right to hunt for everyone else. I suspect it's probably the case and I’m sure we would benefit from such an arrangement over here too.

 

As you point out, the language differences are significant and I’m reminded of one of my old friend in Iowa’s sayings “We’re two nations divided by a common language” (think about it, I had to). It also reminds me of an amusing incident which highlights the differences and still makes me smile even today…. To most Americans a “shag” is a dance and a “fanny” is someone’s backside. One night a group of us had more than a few drinks, were listening to old music and telling tales of our youth and the things we did while growing up. When one lady proudly announced “I learned to shag using a doorknob”. Things got even worse the following day when three of us were trying to fit into the front seat of a truck to go hunting and she complained “I can’t get in my fanny’s stretched”. My friend on his first trip to America, fell out of the truck laughing and said “I ain’t f---ing surprised!”. And that is the gospel truth.

 

Y.I.S. - Barrie

Edited February 10, 2012 by Barrie

[KawValley 131]

Good post

[Coyotehunter 689]

Well written Mosby

That the 2nd good post you've posted within 24 hrs

[stop.end 4,079]

I think there are some prejudices about what americans expect from our dogs that I would like to clear up.

 

The first of which is that every American wants a hard dog. This is not true. Americans who hunt regularly may have a use for a hard dog here and there but that is not what all of us care to hunt or breed from. People who hunt regularly and some of us who hunt for trade in produce or for money, need a dog that can be hunted not sit in the kennel or on the chain healing. If a dog is only useful one day out of 20 or 30 it is not very useful. Is it?

I think this misconception of Americans comes from the bulldog guys and the chicken guys who were some of the first to obtain patterdales or english bred dogs in America. These men like bloodsports. I'm not stating an opinion for or against blood sports but I can state my opinion that throwing a dog on already found or trapped game is not hunting. The guys who want extremely hard dogs and only extremely hard dogs, generally do not hunt that often, but they love a fight. Even my friends with hard dogs wish their dogs were softer. But a good dog is a good dog so the hard ones stick around for what they are useful for. Not saying a hard dog doesn't have a use. I want it cleared up that some Americans do breed for hunting and not just fighting.

 

Second misconception is that all Americans want very small dogs. This comes from the groundhog hunters needing (?) an extremely small dog. Groundhogs are only hunted in a portion of the united states. Dogs of the size for groundhogs are useless in many parts of the united states. We have an assortment of game in all different sizes for a terrier. From coon over forty pounds to coon under ten pounds. Badger, Red fox, Grey fox, otter, nutria, groundhog, beaver, rock chuck. Our game can weigh in at 70 pounds (beaver) or 6 pounds (groundhog). Everyone I talk to thinks we need very small dogs. Around here there have been dogs over thirty pounds that could make it to ground. We also have holes, just in my hunting ground, too small for a 14 pound dog. Americans have use for all different sizes of dogs. We don't all breed down our dogs to below 12 pounds.

 

The third and last misconception goes both ways from one culture to another. Pay attention that the slang of hunting in one area is not confused to mean the same thing in all areas. I just realized this month that just within the boundaries of America we use different slang for hunting. In some parts a hard terrier is not known as hard but as "fighty" which to another may mean the dog fight with other dogs (which it does not mean this). One person may call a dog a cull or a cur or a plug all which mean the same thing. How I came to the realization that some things can be lost in translation even from one english speaker to another is when I described what I like in a dog and mentioned "I want the dog to hold the game til I get there or dig to it". When my friends and I say "Hold" it means the game did not move. The dog could be baying it, biting it, mixing it up... Whatever the case, the game was "held" in one spot. But I realized that a hearer of me saying "Hold", or "Held" could interpret it as the dog came to grips with the game and never let go til I got or get there.

I learned some new lingo from reading on here but it never registered to me that could be speaking in terms that don't mean the same thing to others.

 

Anyhow folks, I'm sure these are not all the misconceptions but these are some I've run into. Good hunting folks of all countries.

 

 

Hi Mosby

Having been a regular visitor to the USA for the past 21 years, sometimes 2, 3 and 4 times a year. I've hunted a number of the different quarry species you mention with terriers, in a variety of different States, in lots of different company, along with some of your larger quarry with hounds (bear etc) and I think your description of terrierwork on that side of the “Pond” reflects my own experience entirely.

 

If I might, I’d like to add a couple of observations of my own…. I was left with the distinct impression that the “pit bull” mentality seemed in the main to stem from a relatively small, but highly visible (websites, internet etc) group of “dog traders” (certainly not what I would call terrier men) who in conjunction with others of a similar nature here and in Europe imported and marketed working terriers (particularly Patterdales) as if they were miniature pit bulls. I’ve even seen them described as ideal “guard dogs for apartments”. It did little to enhance the reputation of the breed, or of terrierwork in general and did us all a great disservice.

 

Secondly I always found field ethics amongst American terriermen and terrier WOMEN to be particularly high, especially when compared to some of the postings I’ve seen on occasions on this site and elsewhere. Maybe this stems from the fact that it’s commonplace to hunt under license in the USA and that the idiot fringe soon lose their license and their right to hunt. Unfortunately, over here it’s the idiots who will lose the right to hunt for everyone else. I suspect it's probably the case and I’m sure we would benefit from such an arrangement over here too.

 

As you rightly point out, the language differences are significant and I’m reminded of one of my old friend in Iowa’s sayings “We’re two nations divided by a common language” (think about it, I had to).

 

It also reminds me of an amusing incident which highlights the differences and still makes me smile even today…. To most Americans a “shag” is a dance and a “fanny” is someone’s backside. One night a group of us had more than a few drinks, were listening to old music and telling tales of our youth and the things we did while growing up. When one lady proudly announced “I learned to shag using a doorknob”. Things got even worse the following day when three of us were trying to fit into the front seat of a truck to go hunting and she complained “I can’t get in my fanny’s stretched”. My friend on his first trip to America, fell out of the truck laughing and said “I ain’t f---ing surprised!”. And that is the gospel truth.

 

Y.I.S. - Barrie

LOL...GOODTIMES they were id say barry got a good laugh at that....

[Mosby 355]

Ha ha. I laughed out loud at that Barrie. I agree with what you have said. Sadly, most do not get to cross the pond one way or another. Many terrier hunters will not meet many of the other terrier hunters in their own country. It seems in America that there is a different expectation of terriers and culture among the hunters in every area.

[Hoss1 3]

It seems in America that there is a different expectation of terriers and culture among the hunters in every area.

 

 

I must be a little slow becouse you lost me with this one Mosby. I will agree there can be a difference in size preferred. Maybe some what dependent on type of Quarry being hunted? Other than that most everyone I have hunted with are striving for simular traits.

[Mosby 355]

Some people expect a noisy dog. Some people want stone quiet. Some want them to range out and search, some discipline the dog for leaving their heels, some keep them leashed til they get to game. Some hunt all above ground and refuse to dig. Some only dig and refuse to hunt above. Some hunt in barns, some in brush, some in slash. One person wants a dog that can be called out, some would cull against that same trait. Some call a dog that bays and works it's quarry close a smart dog, others would say that stems from fear and wouldn't keep it. But yeah, size is probably the most fluctuating.

 

This isn't terriers but in hounds I heard one guy who was looking for a dog say that he didn't care if the dog tracked, barked on the tree or what. He just wanted it with the pack at the end. He didn't pretend to need a great dog, he just wanted an excuse to be in the woods. Different expectations

[Cornsnaggler 2]

Mosby ,while you may well find hunters in all of the catagories you mentioned as far as desired dog traits and hunting styles, by and large most want a dog to go to ground, locate and work their quarry til dug to....Of course many work terriers in barns, old buildings, hay piles,etc, BECAUSE, thats where the game is located, but, those same dogs just as likely will be working to earth on another day.....You painted with far too broad a brush.....Different quarry , different tactics, and different sized dogs oftentimes, but still , a terrier to earth is the predominant U.S. standard......There will always be those that are off the beaten path, but, your way off base to lump the majority with your mentioned minority.

[Mosby 355]

Just stating what I've seen. Everybody would be working the same type of dogs if expectations were the same. If everybody expected the same thing it would be easy to find a good working terrier. I have hunted with dogs I would not keep, but were rated highly by the person who owned it, this suggests to me that the people who bred the group of dogs was breeding with different expectations in mind.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Mosby

[Cornsnaggler 2]

The quality of various terriers thruought the US is a different subject all together.....There is any number of different people that work and breed top class dogs, but, their dogs are not peddled or handed out to just anyone.....Just like in the UK , the big talking internet sites selling their world beaters to one and all are not the same terriers used by the serious terrierman, for the most part...If you want a worker , talk to the men that work them, not the show people or just anyone that has pups for sale.....Expectations dont make workers, solid worker to worker breedings do...If you can't verify the staying power of the dogs in the generations directly behind them, dont expect the finders and stayers that have that zest for working....One mans trash is anothers treasure!

[Hoss1 3]

The quality of various terriers thruought the US is a different subject all together.....There is any number of different people that work and breed top class dogs, but, their dogs are not peddled or handed out to just anyone.....Just like in the UK , the big talking internet sites selling their world beaters to one and all are not the same terriers used by the serious terrierman, for the most part...If you want a worker , talk to the men that work them, not the show people or just anyone that has pups for sale.....Expectations dont make workers, solid worker to worker breedings do...If you can't verify the staying power of the dogs in the generations directly behind them, dont expect the finders and stayers that have that zest for working....One mans trash is anothers treasure!

 

 

Very well said.