5 Nations Terrier Show (Ireiand)

[phantomflanflinger 24]

On a serious note and all joking apart , the idea of a 5 nation championship is great

in theory. The notion that it has been fixed is laughable to say the least ,

Edited August 18, 2010 by phantomflanflinger

[AlbertJ 569]

Albert it is part 2 of your reply to my post that will hit a bad nerve with a lot of workers of terriers in this country and in Britain. It is rubbish like that that has been spawned out for many years that makes certain people and a club (hence the shows that they run) a joke amongst the working dog fraternity in Ireland.

Correct me if I'm wrong Albert, but didn't you once write an article on Seamus Erwin????

In this article (and I quote) that you said that most terrier men in Ireland have Seamus Erwin to thank for their terriers and their bloodlines.

I, like many terriermen, take this as a massive insult to not only my terriers but to the men who worked the lines before me to think that someone ,who is a known dog dealer, could get the credit of those that did keep and work the few good lines of terriers and didn't see £££££££££s.

This is one of the reasons that the MAWTL Club is seen as a joke by workers of terriers.

I'm sure (and hope) your show will be well attended and will be well and fairly run. But the workers will be noticable by their abstance.

 

 

Neil,

 

What I said and what I can stand over is : The main officials of the Mid Antrim Terrier Club have a reputation second to none for what they have achieved both in and out of the ring. Take Seamus, for example, has anyone in Ireland dealt with more foxes or is more knowledgable about foxes or terriers? What terrierman in Ireland has won the top UK titles and been invited to judge at the top shows? Or bred as good a dogs? I have to say most of the criticism I have seen on this forum has been from people complaining that they haven't been successful because the judging has been rigged.

 

I write this from experience and not from Hearsay. I did not write an article on Seamus this was written and submitted by someone else. I certainly would not have made such a sweeping statement about his breeding as I know working terriers are a very diverse lot.

 

You have been very full in your criticism of seamus but what sort of record can you put up against his? What I would ask is what your dogs, your lines and you have done at any shows. And it is shows that we are talking about here as I know from talking to well known terriermen in the Uk who would know Seamus that Seamus is regarded as a serious terrier man amongst these. His show record speaks for itself and I know for a fact he is regarded as one of the top fox controllers in NI.

 

All I know about you is that you judged recently at Ballinlough and from the video I have seen of the fair ( and not your judging I hasten to add), the fair appeared to be a real joke! And I seem to recall you stating that these organisers organised the top fairs in Ireland - if that is your honest opinion then I have to seriously question your overall judgement.

 

I do hope to see you at Birr and for you to see what the MAWTC are doing for terriers , lurchers and whippets.

 

AlbertJ

Edited August 18, 2010 by AlbertJ

[AlbertJ 569]

i dont know "most terriermen in ireland" but the ones i do know dont have ANY of his breeding in their kennels.

i know a couple of show ponys who do though.

 

not a dig, just what ive seen myself.

 

I have seen Seamus work his dogs on my shoot and other places. He has managed to create the ideal for working terrier shows - dogs that look good, have good confirmation, and are fit for purpose. His reputation in NI for dealing with fox problems is legendary. AND he has won at the highest level in shows all over the UK.

 

What has Mr Cooney done - he judged at the recent Fair at Ballinlough - WOW! What a recommendation for one's CV.

 

Incidently he has totally misquoted me as I did not write the article what I said on this forum and what I stand over and to which Mr Cooney responded was :

 

"The main officials of the Mid Antrim Terrier Club have a reputation second to none for what they have achieved both in and out of the ring. Take Seamus, for example, has anyone in Ireland dealt with more foxes or is more knowledgable about foxes or terriers? What terrierman in Ireland has won the top UK titles and been invited to judge at the top shows? Or bred as good a dogs? I have to say most of the criticism I have seen on this forum has been from people complaining that they haven't been successful because the judging has been rigged. "

 

That challenge remains - name me a terrierman who has done more than Seamus in or out of the ring? The silence so far has been deafening!

[neil cooney 10,415]

As regards my own terriers and what I've done with them Albert? Entirely my own buisness. But I don't sell pups, I don't breed pups to sell, nor do I buy and sell adult terriers. Nor have I had an article written stateing that those who work terriers in Ireland have me to thank for the breeding etc etc. Nor do I run "working terrier shows".

I have however judged several and those that ask me do so because I work my terriers.

I was there in either '88 or '89 when Sheamus Erwin asked an 18 year old friend of mine to judge the terriers at the game fair in Russborough House ,Co. Wicklow. Sheamus did ring steward and proceeded to tell my friend what dogs to place and win etc.

I won a first place with a terrier I had bought of Sheamus that day and the judges name was Conor L. I was about 18 at the time too.

I was also there when around 7 or 8 years ago I travelled with a friend of mine up to a show ran by the MAWTL Club in Shanes castle. This man ,Dave Dalton had reacently bought a terrier from England for £500 which turned out was useless as a worker. Dave decided to sell the terrier as a show dog ONLY to try and get some of his money back. In my eyes the dog should have been PTS but as he was a hamdsome dog Dave thought differently.

Dave told Matt Lee he had a show dog for sale at the show. Soon lads started to look at the terrier and they all said the same thing, they had heard it was a good worker. Dave didn't sell the dog and asked Matt why he had told everyone the terrier was a good one. Matt's reply was that he'd sell it quicker. We went home and did what should have been done in the first place.

So I know a little of the integrity of your show organisers Albert.

How can you judge a show by a video Albert????

The vast majority of the terriers that I handled that day were workers and well kept workers at that.

As for making snipe remarks about other peoples game fairs?? Petty and unprofessional.

You haven't a monopoly anymore on the Irish game fairs and the show held in Moira is recognised as Irelands best by many many people and has a good professional team behind it.

Who have you got? The MAWTL club and Mr Midlander, a man who informed us through his weekly column in the CMW that we must all stand together and fight for the R.I.S.E. when the Dail was already debating the Ward Union issue.

Not exactly having your finger on the pulse of current fieldsports issues, is it ?

[neil cooney 10,415]

Sheesh Albert, while I was typeing all those words you were already back on saying that the silence was deafening. LOL.

Tell you what, why don't you ask all the folks on here to tell us about Mr Erwins achievements in the field (where it counts) and not in the show ring (which doesn't matter). See what the working terrier folk have to tell us. If he's done so much surely many will have seen his mastering of the shovel, the terrier and it's game.

But please, please Albert don't even use the LEGENDARY word in the same sentance as those you speak off. It belittles those that have earned it and makes even bigger fools of yourselves.

Sorry but JMHO.

 

Oh, as for my own records in the field? I don't really care that most folk will never know of them. Hunting isn't a contest.

[AlbertJ 569]

As regards my own terriers and what I've done with them Albert? Entirely my own buisness. But I don't sell pups, I don't breed pups to sell, nor do I buy and sell adult terriers. Nor have I had an article written stateing that those who work terriers in Ireland have me to thank for the breeding etc etc. Nor do I run "working terrier shows".

I have however judged several and those that ask me do so because I work my terriers.

I was there in either '88 or '89 when Sheamus Erwin asked an 18 year old friend of mine to judge the terriers at the game fair in Russborough House ,Co. Wicklow. Sheamus did ring steward and proceeded to tell my friend what dogs to place and win etc.

I won a first place with a terrier I had bought of Sheamus that day and the judges name was Conor L. I was about 18 at the time too.

I was also there when around 7 or 8 years ago I travelled with a friend of mine up to a show ran by the MAWTL Club in Shanes castle. This man ,Dave Dalton had reacently bought a terrier from England for £500 which turned out was useless as a worker. Dave decided to sell the terrier as a show dog ONLY to try and get some of his money back. In my eyes the dog should have been PTS but as he was a hamdsome dog Dave thought differently.

Dave told Matt Lee he had a show dog for sale at the show. Soon lads started to look at the terrier and they all said the same thing, they had heard it was a good worker. Dave didn't sell the dog and asked Matt why he had told everyone the terrier was a good one. Matt's reply was that he'd sell it quicker. We went home and did what should have been done in the first place.

So I know a little of the integrity of your show organisers Albert.

How can you judge a show by a video Albert????

The vast majority of the terriers that I handled that day were workers and well kept workers at that.

As for making snipe remarks about other peoples game fairs?? Petty and unprofessional.

You haven't a monopoly anymore on the Irish game fairs and the show held in Moira is recognised as Irelands best by many many people and has a good professional team behind it.

Who have you got? The MAWTL club and Mr Midlander, a man who informed us through his weekly column in the CMW that we must all stand together and fight for the R.I.S.E. when the Dail was already debating the Ward Union issue.

Not exactly having your finger on the pulse of current fieldsports issues, is it ?

 

 

Neil,

 

If you think Moira is the best Fair in Ireland then I think you have demonstrated a severe lack of judgement - have you never been to Shanes Castle? Last year it set a record for attendance and the number and quality of its stands and competitions. This year it went even further ahead and set a record attendance for any game or country fair in Ireland ever. In my professional opinion and I think I know rather more about shows and event organising than you, and of course we survey everyone, not just seek the opinion of someone with an axe to grind - the current show rankings as expressed by competitors, event organisers and exhibitors is 1. Shanes. Closely followed by Birr - then probably Moira although we brought Ballywalter up quickly this year followed a very very long way behind by Ballinlough.

 

If you think differently to this you are totally out of touch or completely biased by you having been invited to judge at what has been described to me by an experienced UK exhibitor as "disastrous - the worst Irish Fair I've ever been at" . I have heard no one other than yourself claim that the show was other than this.

 

To go back to my challenge to you which you have ducked :

 

"The main officials of the Mid Antrim Terrier Club have a reputation second to none for what they have achieved both in and out of the ring. Take Seamus, for example, has anyone in Ireland dealt with more foxes or is more knowledgable about foxes or terriers? What terrierman in Ireland has won the top UK titles and been invited to judge at the top shows? Or bred as good a dogs?" I think your silence on your own record speaks is a lot less eloquent and forthright than your criticism of Matt and Seamus.

 

What have we got at our fairs - the best competitions , the best prizes, the best venues, the best arena programmes, the best range of exhibitors including guns, tackle and clothing and the support of all of the major countrysports bodies who recognise who runs the best fairs. And of course we have the best terrier, lurcher and whippet events.

 

And to see what tourism and marketing professionals thought when they compared the two fairs go to www.irishgamefair.com/award.asp

 

And what countrysports professionals like Noel Carr FISSTA and Des Crofton NARGC and Ireland's leading gundealer thought of last year's fairs look at the www.countrychannel.tv programme archive or what www.irishfieldsports.tv thought of this years fair. If you like I'll send you a copy to see crowds such as you have never seen at an Irish Game Fair.

 

These and the many thousands of satisfied customers who go to our fairs, the literally hundreds of competitors and the increasing number of exhibitorsw who want space are the people who increasingly are voting with their feet for the Great Game Fairs of Ireland brand.

 

I will make one final challenge to you since you had the good grace to wish us well. Come to Birr this year and Shanes Castle next year and give an honest opinion of how they compare with Moira and Ballinlough. I'll even send you a ticket.

 

Alberj

[AlbertJ 569]

Sheesh Albert, while I was typeing all those words you were already back on saying that the silence was deafening. LOL.

Tell you what, why don't you ask all the folks on here to tell us about Mr Erwins achievements in the field (where it counts) and not in the show ring (which doesn't matter). See what the working terrier folk have to tell us. If he's done so much surely many will have seen his mastering of the shovel, the terrier and it's game.

But please, please Albert don't even use the LEGENDARY word in the same sentance as those you speak off. It belittles those that have earned it and makes even bigger fools of yourselves.

Sorry but JMHO.

 

Oh, as for my own records in the field? I don't really care that most folk will never know of them. Hunting isn't a contest.

 

 

Neil,

 

We appear to be covering old ground. I have seen Seamus at work and I know the excellent reputation he had for foxing. It might be before your time but his name was and still is legendary for fox control amongst farmers and even expperienced keepers in NI. I have met many farmers at shows and in my travels about the country who swear by him and call him to control foxes. Even DC Kinney who has worked terriers a lifetime and no great fan of Seamus had to admit 'he was the best'. And one had only to see how he was received in the keepers tent at Ballywalter to see how good his reputation is amongst professional vermin controllers.

 

Although he has branched out into gundog work and again the dogs he keeps are good but he still keeps two good terriers. These are good looking workers.

 

Where we came into this conversation was talking about terrier shows not terrier work. Any show that I have anything to do with will be fair.

 

But while I have enjoyed the debate I must go now as I have a Fair to organise and try to bring Birr up to the level of Ireland's premier game or country fair - our event at Shanes of course!

 

You are very welcome to come to any of our shows and see the REAL difference in a truly professionally run event.

[neil cooney 10,415]

Thanks but no thanks Albert. I didn't miss the N.I. gamefair for 14 years untill 2001 when you had to move the fair to the Ardoyne airfield because of the Foot and Mouth outbreak. You'll remember it was just before the 12th and we travelling from the South had to go through the Ardoyne.

You'll also remember that there was an affray around the terrier ring that made the front pages of the papers. That was started after a pistol was pointed at my 9 year old son and I and some friends of ours from the North stepped in. The lads with the pistol were nothing to do with fieldsports and were just locals.

I always thought it strange how in those days you ran your shows near the 12th.

Anyway that is nothing to do with the issue here and I wont continue to argue in case it takes away from the lads who are organising this years 5 nations contest. Best regards to them.

My issue is however Albert is that you continue to bad mouth shows that have nothing to do with you and that you compare certain owners of terriers to the legends within the terrier world. Certain men who are considered messers by those that walk the walk.

Personally I find both in very bad taste and showing yourself to be not the professional you think you are.

Yours in sport,

[fionn 21]

i dont know "most terriermen in ireland" but the ones i do know dont have ANY of his breeding in their kennels.

i know a couple of show ponys who do though.

 

not a dig, just what ive seen myself.

 

I have seen Seamus work his dogs on my shoot and other places. He has managed to create the ideal for working terrier shows - dogs that look good, have good confirmation, and are fit for purpose. His reputation in NI for dealing with fox problems is legendary. AND he has won at the highest level in shows all over the UK.

 

What has Mr Cooney done - he judged at the recent Fair at Ballinlough - WOW! What a recommendation for one's CV.

 

Incidently he has totally misquoted me as I did not write the article what I said on this forum and what I stand over and to which Mr Cooney responded was :

 

"The main officials of the Mid Antrim Terrier Club have a reputation second to none for what they have achieved both in and out of the ring. Take Seamus, for example, has anyone in Ireland dealt with more foxes or is more knowledgable about foxes or terriers? What terrierman in Ireland has won the top UK titles and been invited to judge at the top shows? Or bred as good a dogs? I have to say most of the criticism I have seen on this forum has been from people complaining that they haven't been successful because the judging has been rigged. "

 

That challenge remains - name me a terrierman who has done more than Seamus in or out of the ring? The silence so far has been deafening!

now albert how can you come on here and slate another gamefair the same people will be at your show ill have to add the prizes on the day were fantactic look i fully surport

you on improving you show and have help in a small way but i must point out to you if i was to name a hundreds top terriermen in ireland that have worked and bred good terriers over the last 30 years shamus wouldnt be mention AS FOR SHOW RINGS DESSIE MACKEN has won more shows in england and ireland than anyman and has judge all over the would now albert your rubbing the irish pubic up the wrong way plus niel cooney is a good terrierman that works his dogs with a hunt everyweek the more you seem to reply its coming across as you know nothing about working or showing terrier .shamus done his bit in terrierworld but he never be famus yours fionn

[gonetoearth 5,144]

lads we were coming over should we buy some bullet proof

deerhunter gear for ring side :

Edited August 18, 2010 by gonetoearth

[CarraghsGem 92]

lads we were coming over should we buy some bullet proof

deerhunter gear for ring side :

 

nah, i'll protect ya

[AlbertJ 569]

Thanks but no thanks Albert. I didn't miss the N.I. gamefair for 14 years untill 2001 when you had to move the fair to the Ardoyne airfield because of the Foot and Mouth outbreak. You'll remember it was just before the 12th and we travelling from the South had to go through the Ardoyne.

You'll also remember that there was an affray around the terrier ring that made the front pages of the papers. That was started after a pistol was pointed at my 9 year old son and I and some friends of ours from the North stepped in. The lads with the pistol were nothing to do with fieldsports and were just locals.

I always thought it strange how in those days you ran your shows near the 12th.

Anyway that is nothing to do with the issue here and I wont continue to argue in case it takes away from the lads who are organising this years 5 nations contest. Best regards to them.

My issue is however Albert is that you continue to bad mouth shows that have nothing to do with you and that you compare certain owners of terriers to the legends within the terrier world. Certain men who are considered messers by those that walk the walk.

Personally I find both in very bad taste and showing yourself to be not the professional you think you are.

Yours in sport,

 

Neil,

 

Once again you totally duck the challenges and again throw inaccurate and defamatory material into the mix.

 

1. I have never run a show at the Ardoyne Airfield.

2. I helped BASC run an event at Ards Airfield in Newtownards - it was run under their banner but I stepped in to help sort things out. If anyone looks at a map if you travelled to Ards Airfield through the Ardoyne ( in North Belfast) you must have taken an extremely scenic detour of about 40/50 miles out of the normal route! It would appear that since Ardoyne has been unfortunately in the news you would wish to associate us with this trouble. Our fairs have always been a beacon of cross community, cross border tolerance and co-operation.

3. There was a small fight at the terriers but absolutely no guns. I have the police report and neither it or the newspapers reported such an incident nor did the photographer who took some pictures of the fight or the person who was injured in the fight. I think you must have let your obviously very fertile imagination run riot - perhaps it was a water pistol - or perhaps you really did go to Ardoyne that day or a few weeks later on the 12th of July!

4. We do not run our shows around the 12th - our shows this year were run the beginning of May, end of June and the end of August. I don't understand your point on this anyway - except possibly to try to make some sectarian association with our shows which I have stated clearly are totally cross community and crossborder in focus and in ethos. If only you knew the truth!

5. You criticised our event organisers at Birr and you have been quoted as saying the Moira Fair is the best in Ireland when it would appear that you have not been to any of our recent shows at Shanes Castle - some objectivity. You called our hard working terrier team a 'joke' and they have succcessfully been running the top terrier shows in Ireland at the top fairs for over 20 years. The only record it appear you can put up is judging the terriers at Ballinlough. In the same vein and using your own phraseology I said it appeared that Fair appeared a bit of a joke!

 

As I have stated before, the Moira Fair is a reasonable one in the very unpromising venue of a public park. What I object to about it is the hype and apparently outrageously enhanced claims made about it by its organisers and their acolytes of which you are obviously one. Quite simply it bears little or no comparison to NI's best game or country fair at Shanes Castle - who says so - the professionals I have quoted. Thsat isn't bad mouthing that is fact!

 

The fair at Ballinlough was lsunched with much hype and a very modest reality in 2009, and promoted with even more hype in 2010. From eye witness accounts trade, competitors, quite a few of our event organisers and country sports and tourism professionals and the video I have seen no one could claim it was a success. That's not bad mouthing it - that is telling it as it is. Once again it bears no comparison to the fair at Birr - again a fact!

 

What is bad mouthing is what you have done about Seamus and Matt.

 

Thanks for your good wishes for the Five Nations. I am deeply sorry that you won't take up my challenge to come to Birr and see for yourself what a proper Game Fair is all about. But to paraphrase an old adage "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see." it appears that you wish to continue criticise things you haven't seen!

 

Albertj

[gonetoearth 5,144]

30 all new balls please

[sionnach 44]

all i can say is each to there own, some like show ponies an some lads like to just get on with working there dogs no hype or bullshit need. to call a man legendry is going a bit far imho he might be legendry in his own small circle but not around digging men down this way. there are men in the game alot longer then seamus that don't want there name in lights. good luck with the fair, y.i.s sionnach

[AlbertJ 569]

i dont know "most terriermen in ireland" but the ones i do know dont have ANY of his breeding in their kennels.

i know a couple of show ponys who do though.

 

not a dig, just what ive seen myself.

 

I have seen Seamus work his dogs on my shoot and other places. He has managed to create the ideal for working terrier shows - dogs that look good, have good confirmation, and are fit for purpose. His reputation in NI for dealing with fox problems is legendary. AND he has won at the highest level in shows all over the UK.

 

What has Mr Cooney done - he judged at the recent Fair at Ballinlough - WOW! What a recommendation for one's CV.

 

Incidently he has totally misquoted me as I did not write the article what I said on this forum and what I stand over and to which Mr Cooney responded was :

 

"The main officials of the Mid Antrim Terrier Club have a reputation second to none for what they have achieved both in and out of the ring. Take Seamus, for example, has anyone in Ireland dealt with more foxes or is more knowledgable about foxes or terriers? What terrierman in Ireland has won the top UK titles and been invited to judge at the top shows? Or bred as good a dogs? I have to say most of the criticism I have seen on this forum has been from people complaining that they haven't been successful because the judging has been rigged. "

 

That challenge remains - name me a terrierman who has done more than Seamus in or out of the ring? The silence so far has been deafening!

now albert how can you come on here and slate another gamefair the same people will be at your show ill have to add the prizes on the day were fantactic look i fully surport

you on improving you show and have help in a small way but i must point out to you if i was to name a hundreds top terriermen in ireland that have worked and bred good terriers over the last 30 years shamus wouldnt be mention AS FOR SHOW RINGS DESSIE MACKEN has won more shows in england and ireland than anyman and has judge all over the would now albert your rubbing the irish pubic up the wrong way plus niel cooney is a good terrierman that works his dogs with a hunt everyweek the more you seem to reply its coming across as you know nothing about working or showing terrier .shamus done his bit in terrierworld but he never be famus yours fionn

 

 

Fionn,

I replied to Neil in the same vein as he slated Seamus and Matt who have done a great job in organising our shows he was the one who talked about people being a joke. He has also criticised our events without having been at them either at all or since 2001 and made highly inaccurate and defamtory allegations. The Fair at Ballinough was greatly hyped up and such hype disappoints people and as such damages the reputation of all Irish Game fairs for exhibitors, public and competitors.

 

Did you see the claimed 180 stands there?

 

If people are ofended by my robust responses to Neil Cooney in defence of people who have done a good job for me and against someone who makes unfair and inaccurate claims or comparisons about our shows based totally on ignorance then so be it.

 

Casn you mention one hundred terrier men who have killed more foxes than Seamus? Can you mention over 100 Irish terrier men who have won at Stoneleigh beating all the top UK dogs with a real working dog? Of course you can't nor indeed could Neil Cooney. I would state categorically that in my opinion Seamus has forgotten more about terrier showing, working or judging than Neil will ever know.

 

I haven't come on here to be liked or be Mr Popularity I have come on to tell it as it is.

 

My own experience of showing, working and judging dogs goes back over 50 years. I have won at the highest level in the Showring including a third out of 22 English Champions in the top class at Crufts and BEST In Show at the All Ireland Golden Retriever Championship Show beating virtually all the best show dogs in Ireland and quite a few good English and Scottish dogs with a working golden retriever who won tests, ran in trials and was used on shoots and when shooting. I have had several other dogs which won at the highest level in the showring and all were workers. I also have won several tests and competed at the highest level in field trials with many awards. So I have had my dogs looks/conformation and working ability judged in actual competition rather than claiming some unspecified or untested ability for them. I have judged Ch shows and BIS. So I would put my overall knowledge of working/show dogs up against that of Neil Cooney any day.

 

However when I showed dogs ( I rarely do now) I didn't gripe about 'show ponies' I simply acquired and trained working dogs that could hold their own in either sphere- that is what Seamus has and had.

 

As I have said before it takes a very good working dog to win against a show dog in a show where looks rather than working ability are judged. What people like Neil appear to want to do is to penalise the other dogs by turning the shows on their head to suit their type of dog.

 

AlbertJ

Edited August 18, 2010 by AlbertJ