Thanks for the replys, some good tips coming my way, im thinking an early morning, before sunrise, laying & waiting on the clever sods, I will let you all know how I get on, on my next ventre out, it does knock your neck in when you go out expecting a good night & wander around all night looking for a shot, a least im managing to shoot a few woodies to keep my intrest, I will just have to keep trying, keep the tips coming, cheers Viz