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Long Range Shooting


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#31 cyclonebri1

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:07 pm

How far you want to shoot?
1000yds has gotta be targets!
Friend uses 22-250 and 22-4000 and hes taking foxes way out past 350yds.
Seen him take crows at 300yds!
And one shot etched on my mind, a hare at over 500yds!

If you can hit the target with enough energy at that distance, no reason it can't be Live targets. I'd take the exception of something such as a Deer at that distance.

But if you're talking Fox downwards with a capable bullet, why not.

SS http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

Surely though, the FEO would never accept that as good reason on a variation? How can a shot on typical hunting ground be deemed safe at such a range. This surely has to be range shooting to be acceptable?

#32 SportingShooter

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:27 pm

How far you want to shoot?
1000yds has gotta be targets!
Friend uses 22-250 and 22-4000 and hes taking foxes way out past 350yds.
Seen him take crows at 300yds!
And one shot etched on my mind, a hare at over 500yds!

If you can hit the target with enough energy at that distance, no reason it can't be Live targets. I'd take the exception of something such as a Deer at that distance.

But if you're talking Fox downwards with a capable bullet, why not.

SS http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub...

Surely though, the FEO would never accept that as good reason on a variation? How can a shot on typical hunting ground be deemed safe at such a range. This surely has to be range shooting to be acceptable?
I can't see that the FEO matters? Once a piece of ground is passed for a calibre, then you can take whichever shot you wish on it. It is up to the shooter to deem it safe or not. They promote safe shooting on the Letter that comes with your FAC, but they cant make you. It depends on how well you know the ground and how competent you are at taking the shot.

There aren't many pieces of ground that can adapt to a 1000 yard shot i'd imagine.

#33 lgray88

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 04:36 pm

i have one or two areas where i can shoot upto a 1000yards the hill i shoot on is a little broken so you need to get the right direction to the target or you can see bugger all, i have occasionaly shot crows at over 300 yards but nothin as long as 500 with my .22-250 i havent tryed anything too adventurous yet id far rather shoot with somethin suitable that can reach out that distance rather than pushing the limits of my .22-250 i know fine well its capable of 500 yard shots but not a 1 km. i have a open ticket so the land i shoot on makes no odds too the feo aslong as i feel my shots are safe it should be fine

#34 cyclonebri1

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 08:14 pm

I supose what i really was saying is "don't tell them you want the variation for target shooting or you won't get it", :whistling: :whistling: :whistling:

#35 Mr_Logic

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:06 pm

You've lost me there. Target shooting, as with the other points that have been mentioned, is perfectly good reason there - FEO is irrelevant here. No problems with the licensing.

And, as ever, I'd stick with 243, given that we are talking live stuff as well as targets. Yes, better calibres exist for this job, but 243 is factory stuff for rifles and ammo.

yes, you will handload I expect, to get the right load and velocity etc. But, factory rifles can do a pretty good job here, until you get serious about it (and even then they can - different discipline, but see under Savage's F/TR, which I hear groups 0.5" @ 300 yards). I'd use 243, good value for money, and a good intro to it.

#36 lgray88

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Posted 04 February 2009 - 11:33 pm

thats correct ML i will be reloading, now i understand i said at the start of the post i would like something of similar ballistic quality as my .22-250 but in all honesty if this is goin to be used a range weapon i will still have too dial in elevation changes wether i use a .243 or a bludy .50bmg :laugh: , now for example what will buck the wind better a faster lighter bullet from a .243 or a the heavier slower bullet of .308 how does the energy on impact differ between the two as the .308 has the weight too hit with yet the .243 has the increased speed. i dont see the feo being any problem they seem quite lenient here when i got my first CF no mentoring, open cert on first grant etc

is one of these consine indicators nesecary if i am goin too shoot from higher ground than what my target is too find out the total horizontal distance rather the actual distance from gun too target?

that savage arms F/TR looks a great gun, shame its only single shot its always good too have that 2nd shot ready if the rifle is too be used on game at some date.

#37 masmiffy

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:21 am

i have one or two areas where i can shoot upto a 1000yards the hill i shoot on is a little broken so you need to get the right direction to the target or you can see bugger all, i have occasionaly shot crows at over 300 yards but nothin as long as 500 with my .22-250 i havent tryed anything too adventurous yet id far rather shoot with somethin suitable that can reach out that distance rather than pushing the limits of my .22-250 i know fine well its capable of 500 yard shots but not a 1 km. i have a open ticket so the land i shoot on makes no odds too the feo aslong as i feel my shots are safe it should be fine



The hare was shot with snow on the ground and it did take 5 rounds to get it, 4 sighters and the final shot.
It was also shot against a big upslope so pretty safe.
Think from memory it was 'paced' at 720 yds.
He is a great long range shot and was responsible for the introduction of the 22-250 into UK as a wildcat rifle.
Now in process of building a 20 cal varmint rifle!

#38 Mr_Logic

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 10:49 am

thats correct ML i will be reloading, now i understand i said at the start of the post i would like something of similar ballistic quality as my .22-250 but in all honesty if this is goin to be used a range weapon i will still have too dial in elevation changes wether i use a .243 or a bludy .50bmg http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/pub... , now for example what will buck the wind better a faster lighter bullet from a .243 or a the heavier slower bullet of .308 how does the energy on impact differ between the two as the .308 has the weight too hit with yet the .243 has the increased speed. i dont see the feo being any problem they seem quite lenient here when i got my first CF no mentoring, open cert on first grant etc

is one of these consine indicators nesecary if i am goin too shoot from higher ground than what my target is too find out the total horizontal distance rather the actual distance from gun too target?

that savage arms F/TR looks a great gun, shame its only single shot its always good too have that 2nd shot ready if the rifle is too be used on game at some date.

Theoretical answers to your questions can be obtained from a ballistics calculator (Google one :)) or quite well from Remington's website. Federal's ammo comparator shows you windage, too.

For long range work, bucking the wind is more important than drop, because you can accurately predict drop. Windage is more difficult to correct, so minimizing this error is important.

The ballistic coefficient of a bullet shows you how well it will buck the wind, and how well it will retain its energy. Higher is better.

Have a look at bullet manufacturers' websites for their published BCs, and use that with a ballistics calculator to get a rough idea of performance. To get velocities, Google people's loads, or look up loads on the powder manufacturers's sites.

Quickly though, we'll start with 22-250 since you know this one well. It fires a lightweight 224 calibre bullet, at speeds of around 3750fps. BC changes with velocity, faster is better, so 22-250 does about as much as is possible with these bullets. However, if you look at the BC of a 50-55gr bullet, they're around .220-235 (IIRC, facts not checked!)

Compare this with 243, which gives you a BC of .330 for a 75gr accutip at 3375 fps (published data, Remington's factory load). The 243 will be slightly more loopy but will buck the wind better. The OTHER thing to note, is that because it holds energy better with a higher BC, the trajectory improves at long range.

When you consider that with the right bullet, you can get the 243 doing around 3000fps with a bullet with a BC of .5+, you see it's a very good long range calibre indeed.

Which leads us neatly on to 308 vs 243. Answer is that 243 is better (just) because...

308 and 243 have roughly comparable BCs if you get the right bullet (if you don't, the BC of 308 is normally a tad higher) but the 243 leaves the barrel faster. Since the rate at which velocity is lost is similar, the 243 makes the journey in less time, and is therefore better at bucking the wind and is flatter.

BUT please note that most of this, for me, is theory - I don't have the right kit, and more importantly enough distance with a reliable backstop, to prove this yet. However, the plethora of people using a 6mm (.243) bullet in various wildcat loads to win stuff shows that it's pretty close to the money.

I still wouldn't get a wildcat to start with though as they are so expensive, and unless you're really trying to compete at high level, don't offer you much extra.

HTH.

#39 coldweld

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 02:57 pm

What grn bullets are your calculations based on ? .308

Is it not 6.5 mm bullet that is used more than the 6mm ?

#40 lgray88

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 05:53 pm

Thanks ML i understand all what you are saying, but it jsut seems pointless keeping both a .22-250 and 243 and i really want too keep the .22-250 its great for allsorts and its cheap too run as i reload, too much of a quander on what too do, it seems alot of these factory made target rifles dont come in .243 and instead .308 so then it will end up being a custom job if i go .243 whihc means more expense, shame they woudlnt jsut give me a .50bmg on my ticket then i would have no queries except how too use the thing

#41 SportingShooter

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 05:59 pm

Thanks ML i understand all what you are saying, but it jsut seems pointless keeping both a .22-250 and 243 and i really want too keep the .22-250 its great for allsorts and its cheap too run as i reload, too much of a quander on what too do, it seems alot of these factory made target rifles dont come in .243 and instead .308 so then it will end up being a custom job if i go .243 whihc means more expense, shame they woudlnt jsut give me a .50bmg on my ticket then i would have no queries except how too use the thing

Light the blue touch paper and retire :D :D

#42 lgray88

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:03 pm

i dont understand , could you enlighten me ?

#43 SportingShooter

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:04 pm

i dont understand , could you enlighten me ?

Thats the safest way to use a .50BMG, Light the Blue touch paper and retire" :D

#44 fastrac10

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:23 pm

Liam
read an artcle in a magazine of a guy that was taking long shots. He was using an RPA .243 70grain factory loads. He was shooting 400-600yards. As has been said here you have a lot of factors to look at, wind been a big one at this range. He took a shot at a rabbit at 545yards. He had a range finder Lecia CRF1200 you have to alter scope at this range, hold over or mil dots are no use. The thing that got me was at that range with a 10mph cross wind moved the bullet 31in! So you need to measure wind speed and direction. His success rate was 70%. It's a whole new ball game shooting at long range. Good luck with it. You will have a big grin on your face when it all comes together!
Cheers
Fastrac10

#45 SNAP SHOT

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Posted 05 February 2009 - 06:30 pm

Unless you can shoot to the abilites of your current rifle, meaning if it's capable of 1/2 MOA groups, with a load that you can shoot that load consistantly, and know you will be on the money everytime, then a target rifle is the next step,
And a custom is not necessarly going to be more expensive, If you buy a shot out rifle and use it as a donar action for the build.....

i have seen the effects of wind on a .308 at 500 yards and shooting againest my .243 with 95 grain nosler, the .243 was grouping better,
and the shooter also shot a .204 which achieved better groups again, and its a lower bc bullet and lighter, but a hell of alot faster,

This conversation could go round in circles all the time shoot this that etc. everyone's opinion will differ, read up as much as you can and make your own decision, at the end of the day YOU will be behind the trigger,

I will tell you why i choose the .243 as my choice, Wide range of bullets and powders, accurate, fast, realtively cheap to reload...
excellent, varmint, target, and deer rifle, So three in one really for me no contest, neither overkill or underkill when the correct bullet is chosen.

my futherest fox shot under the lamp is around 437 yards of the top of my head, i have shot plenty around 400 i'm not blowing my trumpet here just hard facts, all ranged at bullet drop calculated before the shot....

All my deer shot this year where neck shot bar 1
no runners,
futherest neck shot i think was 228 yards, and heart shot at 282 or there abouts, two steps and dead,
So its down to personal choice you see,
my mate shoots both .308 and 6.5x55 on deer and i said i was looking for something a bit harder hitting.........
His ansewer made me think he said if i can hit the vital's with my .243 at that range and drop an animal then were is the difference in the 6.5 and the.243, he said you can't kill it any more once it's dead its noot worring about the bullet it got killed with....

i had a 6.5 years ago and had to sell it, as i needed the money at the time, but my decision to buy a .243 was in my eyes a good one,

BEWARE the man with one rifle springs to mind................. :icon_eek:

hope you get sorted....

snap.


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