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What Deer Calibre For First Deer Rifle.


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#61 charlie caller

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:56 am

 

I can't this side of the border mate. And am planning on going to Poland and Russia with foreign friends to do some boar and possibly bear hunting so a .308 fits the bill perfectly. Just unsure on the .308 for bear lol

 

From the little I know about big game, (about everything I've written here!), .308 is on the light side. .338 lapua or .375 mag much more suited to bear. Problem with these is both are severe overkill on deer and likely to pass through and then some, so only answer might be to get the .308 and borrow a rifle for bear shooting when over there.

 

(Cross posted with SS)

 

Mate there is no such thing as overkill, dead is dead, if you shoot a deer in the chest/boiler room, why would you spoil much meat regardless of calibre, personally if I was shooting bear I would want as much stopping power as possible, so .30-378 or .330 dakota for me at least.


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#62 danw

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:31 am


I can't this side of the border mate. And am planning on going to Poland and Russia with foreign friends to do some boar and possibly bear hunting so a .308 fits the bill perfectly. Just unsure on the .308 for bear lol

 
From the little I know about big game, (about everything I've written here!), .308 is on the light side. .338 lapua or .375 mag much more suited to bear. Problem with these is both are severe overkill on deer and likely to pass through and then some, so only answer might be to get the .308 and borrow a rifle for bear shooting when over there.
 
(Cross posted with SS)

From reading this it's clear you know little about shooting deer as well
The vast majority of deer legal rounds i.e. .243 .308 etc will pass "right through and some"
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#63 Alsone

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:00 pm

 

 

I can't this side of the border mate. And am planning on going to Poland and Russia with foreign friends to do some boar and possibly bear hunting so a .308 fits the bill perfectly. Just unsure on the .308 for bear lol

 
From the little I know about big game, (about everything I've written here!), .308 is on the light side. .338 lapua or .375 mag much more suited to bear. Problem with these is both are severe overkill on deer and likely to pass through and then some, so only answer might be to get the .308 and borrow a rifle for bear shooting when over there.
 
(Cross posted with SS)

From reading this it's clear you know little about shooting deer as well
The vast majority of deer legal rounds i.e. .243 .308 etc will pass "right through and some"

 

 

Fair comment Dan, I've never shot deer.

 

We all know though the importance of having a good background. My point was, the likelyhood of pass through and likely velocity and energy after pass through is going to be much higher when dealing with big game calibres.



#64 shropshire dan

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:05 pm

Absolutely mate. But the way I see it if I apply the same safe shooting practices I do now with .22lr, .22-250 etc I should be alright. I know they will be an extremely greater bullet weight/velocity passing through but like you said the importance of backstop is key.
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#65 charlie caller

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:58 pm

If its a safe shot for a .22 rimfire, it is a safe shot for a .505 Gibbs big game calibre.


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#66 Alsone

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:15 am

If its a safe shot for a .22 rimfire, it is a safe shot for a .505 Gibbs big game calibre.

 

In theory yes. But the greater the velocity and the more energy, the greater the potential for a ricochet off something hard in the backstop and the further it will travel if it does.

 

If it made no difference, the police wouldn't issue guidelines and we'd all be shooting 50 BMG against foxes and rabbits.......well those of us that could afford the ammo would!


Edited by Alsone, 22 April 2015 - 07:16 am.


#67 THE STALKER

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:32 am

If you like/get on with, your 22-250 you will probably like the .270. :thumbs:

 

Personal choice and all that but I don't like/rate either particularly.

 

Versatility wise you will not do much better than a .243, the ammo choice leaves it as a superb longer range foxing tool (you don't need it for 50 yard foxes) and all deer capable as well.  There are no minimum Boar regulations, only suggestion, and when you have an Open FAC with AOLQ you can do what you want.  

 

My .308 was bought with the main objective of Boar, but it gets some target/zeroing use and very occasionally on deer (I have never found my .243 lacking on any UK deer).

 

There are a lot of calibres/guns out there, everyones situation/land/objectives/preferences are different, if it works for you that's all that matters!

I bought my 308 for Boar then got a new ticket and it came with ALQ on it , now the 308 sits in the safe , but my 243, 25.06 gets plenty of use.



#68 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 07:33 am


If its a safe shot for a .22 rimfire, it is a safe shot for a .505 Gibbs big game calibre.

 
In theory yes. But the greater the velocity and the more energy, the greater the potential for a ricochet off something hard in the backstop and the further it will travel if it does.
 
If it made no difference, the police wouldn't issue guidelines and we'd all be shooting 50 BMG against foxes and rabbits.......well those of us that could afford the ammo would!

No. That's not true.

.22 rimfire is far more prone to ricochet than any fullbore rifle round.
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#69 charlie caller

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:18 am

 

 

If its a safe shot for a .22 rimfire, it is a safe shot for a .505 Gibbs big game calibre.

 
In theory yes. But the greater the velocity and the more energy, the greater the potential for a ricochet off something hard in the backstop and the further it will travel if it does.
 
If it made no difference, the police wouldn't issue guidelines and we'd all be shooting 50 BMG against foxes and rabbits.......well those of us that could afford the ammo would!

No. That's not true.

.22 rimfire is far more prone to ricochet than any fullbore rifle round.

 

As anyone who uses one knows only too well. :yes:



#70 Alsone

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 08:48 am

 

No. That's not true.

.22 rimfire is far more prone to ricochet than any fullbore rifle round.

 

 

That's a bit of a generalisation since only the CF varmint calibres tend to explosively fragment.

 

I've shot plenty of .22 RF and I've said previosuly in numerous threads I don't like it from a safety POV because of it's tendancy to richochet. The reason why it ricochets is because of it's expansion rather than fragmentation as seen in most varmint calibres.

 

Most larger game rounds are jacketed / semi-jacketed to control expansion and don't fragment either. Any round that expands not fragments is going to be more prone to ricochet than one that disintegrates on impact, quite simply because you have a single large solid piece of lead (and coppper) impacting the backstop. It's common sense that if you get a richochet, the more velocity and energy it's carrying, the further it will travel. Hence the police guidlelines and restrictions on calibre.


Edited by Alsone, 22 April 2015 - 08:49 am.


#71 danw

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:00 am


 No. That's not true.

.22 rimfire is far more prone to ricochet than any fullbore rifle round.
 

 
That's a bit of a generalisation since only the CF varmint calibres tend to explosively fragment.
 
I've shot plenty of .22 RF and I've said previosuly in numerous threads I don't like it from a safety POV because of it's tendancy to richochet. The reason why it ricochets is because of it's expansion rather than fragmentation as seen in most varmint calibres.
 
Most larger game rounds are jacketed / semi-jacketed to control expansion and don't fragment either. Any round that expands not fragments is going to be more prone to ricochet than one that disintegrates on impact, quite simply because you have a single large solid piece of lead (and coppper) impacting the backstop. It's common sense that if you get a richochet, the more velocity and energy it's carrying, the further it will travel. Hence the police guidlelines and restrictions on calibre.


Being a pedant again it is not the cf varmint calibres that tend to fragment at all it is the varmint style bullets that are designed to fragment regardless of calibre
Take for example the 300rum I had absolutely it's a big game gun yet it also would punt along a 110 gr vmax.
Bullet construction not calibre is the key
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#72 charlie caller

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:32 am

And as for police guidelines Alsone, well what possible use are they really, lets say Fred Bloggs applies for a .22 cf for fox control and needs to get the ground passed, the police inspect the land and inform mr Bloggs of their findings, I am sorry says the officer, but that ground is not suitable for a .22 cf, the very crestfallen mr Bloggs takes his mate lamping on the ground a week later, his mate has an open certificate on a .30-06 and is quite legitimately able to shoot on the ground that only a week earlier was deemed unsuitable for a .22 hornet for instance, all rather silly if you ask me.


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#73 SportingShooter

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 09:50 am

A key point with a .22LR compared to a centre fire for ricochets is that the vast majority of field ammunition used in the UK is subsonic. This means the round is slower than any centrefire and does not have the speed and power push it into a hard target, so it bounces.

Something like a .30-06 if it hits a rock is travelling at such a velocity that it uses the vast majority of its energy to smash that rock into pieces and if it can't, it disintegrates. Ricochets do happen, but they're a lot less frequent.

If everyone thought of whether a shot is safe for a .22LR then that level of care would suffice any centre fire. I am far more wary of my LR than my centrefires before I take a shot.

#74 Alsone

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 11:08 am

 

Being a pedant again it is not the cf varmint calibres that tend to fragment at all it is the varmint style bullets that are designed to fragment regardless of calibre
Take for example the 300rum I had absolutely it's a big game gun yet it also would punt along a 110 gr vmax.
Bullet construction not calibre is the key

 

 

I agree, it was loosely worded.


Edited by Alsone, 22 April 2015 - 11:08 am.

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#75 Hydropotesinermis

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Posted 22 April 2015 - 02:21 pm

A key point with a .22LR compared to a centre fire for ricochets is that the vast majority of field ammunition used in the UK is subsonic. This means the round is slower than any centrefire and does not have the speed and power push it into a hard target, so it bounces.

Something like a .30-06 if it hits a rock is travelling at such a velocity that it uses the vast majority of its energy to smash that rock into pieces and if it can't, it disintegrates. Ricochets do happen, but they're a lot less frequent.

If everyone thought of whether a shot is safe for a .22LR then that level of care would suffice any centre fire. I am far more wary of my LR than my centrefires before I take a shot.


This is totally true.

Having spent many thousand rimfire and many thousand centrefire rounds I know which one I would be worried about most often when it came to ricochet.

It is correct that bullet composition will play a part, but so does the theory of relativity. Kinetic energy lost to the ground by digging in or breaking or moving large debris is massive, as is the resistance from gravity and air of the larger projectile versus the smaller. It doesn't necessarily follow that after striking the ground a larger or heavier projectile will travel further than a smaller one.

As for the police regulations, they don't allow you to have a .50BMG because they don't want you to have a .50BMG, I wouldn't think any decision made by the police regarding firearms law has and sound basis in science.

It's all theory and semantics. A safe shot is a safe shot. A dangerous shot is a dangerous shot. It doesn't matter what you are shooting backstop is of the utmost importance.
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