Gaz_1989 9,539 Posted July 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 oh [bANNED TEXT] okay, fair point. I cant realy comment, mine hasnt been pressured to that extent. Has anyone ever worked a dobe in the field out of interest? Gaz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueCoyote 0 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 the thing i want to know is what sort of person would pressure a dog to the point where it retreats? you've got to be either on some tripped out drugs, or totally out of your skull determined to get what you want. MOST normal people wont go that far. the most they will do is poison the dog or maybe shoot it. there was a cop being pistol whipped by a "thug", cop released his attack dog, the thug hit the dog over the head with the cop's own gun... the dog ran away, then came back, got hit again..... the only thing that saved the cop was his gun jammed when the thug tried to shoot him with it. that gave him time to pull the spare gun in a holster on his leg. the dog had to be retired because of the injuries. but.... German Shepherds are not really known for being "dead game".... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 the thing i want to know is what sort of person would pressure a dog to the point where it retreats? you've got to be either on some tripped out drugs, or totally out of your skull determined to get what you want. German Shepherds are not really known for being "dead game".... Yep but there are plenty like that out there I disagree, the best manwork dogs I have trained and seen have been Imported Shepherds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueCoyote 0 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) the thing i want to know is what sort of person would pressure a dog to the point where it retreats? you've got to be either on some tripped out drugs, or totally out of your skull determined to get what you want. German Shepherds are not really known for being "dead game".... Yep but there are plenty like that out there I disagree, the best manwork dogs I have trained and seen have been Imported Shepherds not saying that many of them cant do the job. lol there are about a dozen or so dogs and handlers i know that would be more than happy to prove me wrong. just saying with a breed designed to herd sheep shouldnt be expected to be dead game.... as opposed to a breed thats been bred to go head to head with bulls, boars, bear AND men. and yeah i live in area fairly close to a mental institution... i already know if a man is crazy enough he'll go through fire to get what he wants..... which is why i have bulldogs as guards and not shepherds. but thats not to say the shepherd we do have is a wimp. but i would hate to put all my faith in her to protect my family only to watch her run the other direction. she acts the part though! Edited July 2, 2008 by BlueCoyote Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Trouble is most people buy a pup, raise it and when something bad happens they expect rin tin tin. It takes hundreds of hours of training to get the real deal and regardless of breed if it doesn't have the minerals in the first place you can't put them in. Shepherds may have originally bred for herding sheep but how long have they been used a guard dogs, police dogs, prison dogs, security dogs, PP dogs, etc etc. I think its widely accepted that this is the breeds main role and has been for a while. Not saying they are the be all and end all, I have seen and trained some real crap Shepherds but after training dozens of different breeds including rotties, collies, Bouviers, dobes, staffys, and when fads changed Am bulls and Malis the best I have seen have been Shepherds from Imported lines, not show crap that couldn't get up a flight of stiars without a stair lift............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bosun11 537 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Gareth, I'm assuming he means if they feel pressured they will pack the game in and walk off. Which is true from the ones I have worked. Don't doubt you on that Simo and would agree, as you know far more than I on such matters. Though I did once have the 'pleasure' of being the 'victim' for a very well trained Dobie that was imported from Austria (I think). The most intimidating dog, it hit my arm like a fecking lorry, knocked me flat, felt it for weeks after! The bloke that brought it over had a import Rottie too, although the Rottie had the size, the sheer strike of the Dobie was awsome. This thing (Doberman) just didn't 'quite' look like your average breed type and its 'switch on, switch off' nature was quite un-nerving with this particular dog..... Very disimilar to the leggy, nervy types seen about the UK. The majority of criminals in this world are 'petty' and the vast wouldn't have a clue as to which dogs will 'GO' if they came into contact with one whilst screwing your propety. My advice, if you looking for a guard breed and your not familiar with them is..... Go for summat big and loud, you only are looking for the 'intimidation factor', Boxer's are a breed that would seem to fit that bill....? Just my opinion but if your looking for a working type please don't class the Bull Greyhound as what a 'guard type' should/could be, certain types of bull terrier have been getting enough bad press for more than enough years to warrant their extermination. Through history game bred bull terriers were selectivley bred to be 'man friendly' when handled during their work. This should always be so. Only over the past 20 or so years has this been turned on its head by 'people' (wannabe gangsters) who took the tenacity of the game bred dog and ideolised it as some sort of ultimate in man/guard work, only to the detriment of the breed. If 'used' in the wrong way Bull X's will most certainly be public enemy No.1. Leave as is..... hunting dog.....(with extras!) I'm not in Simomans league when it comes to training dogs or guard breeds but luckily, my BullX guards (as in a intimidating bark!) and looks the part BUT thats because naturally, in the enviroment he lives in, HE want's to do that...... naturally! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bosun11 537 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Trouble is most people buy a pup, raise it and when something bad happens they expect rin tin tin. It takes hundreds of hours of training to get the real deal and regardless of breed if it doesn't have the minerals in the first place you can't put them in. Shepherds may have originally bred for herding sheep but how long have they been used a guard dogs, police dogs, prison dogs, security dogs, PP dogs, etc etc. I think its widely accepted that this is the breeds main role and has been for a while. Not saying they are the be all and end all, I have seen and trained some real crap Shepherds but after training dozens of different breeds including rotties, collies, Bouviers, dobes, staffys, and when fads changed Am bulls and Malis the best I have seen have been Shepherds from Imported lines, not show crap that couldn't get up a flight of stiars without a stair lift............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueCoyote 0 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Trouble is most people buy a pup, raise it and when something bad happens they expect rin tin tin. It takes hundreds of hours of training to get the real deal and regardless of breed if it doesn't have the minerals in the first place you can't put them in. or they think because the dog is acting like a maniac when people walk past the fence that its a protective guard dog.... or people who mistake fear for protectiveness. Shepherds may have originally bred for herding sheep but how long have they been used a guard dogs, police dogs, prison dogs, security dogs, PP dogs, etc etc. I think its widely accepted that this is the breeds main role and has been for a while. but bulldog/mastiff breeds have been doing it longer. i just dont understand why the switch... except maybe people just want to subdue the criminal, not rip him to pieces lol Not saying they are the be all and end all, I have seen and trained some real crap Shepherds but after training dozens of different breeds including rotties, collies, Bouviers, dobes, staffys, and when fads changed Am bulls and Malis the best I have seen have been Shepherds from Imported lines, not show crap that couldn't get up a flight of stiars without a stair lift. i dont know why the GSD is the most popular except maybe its their clingy nature. i know with my bullies when i'm outside they're content to hang around close by and keep an eye on me. they're not up my ass, shadowing my every move like the shepherd.... she's borderline annoying with her "OMG WHERE DID THEY GO!!" attitude... she's bent the top of the fence trying to climb it so she could come find us. but.... she's not one we bought. she just found her way to our house after someone dropped her off. giant leaping dummy that she is... she's fun though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueCoyote 0 Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) Gareth, I'm assuming he means if they feel pressured they will pack the game in and walk off. Which is true from the ones I have worked. Don't doubt you on that Simo and would agree, as you know far more than I on such matters. Though I did once have the 'pleasure' of being the 'victim' for a very well trained Dobie that was imported from Austria (I think). The most intimidating dog, it hit my arm like a fecking lorry, knocked me flat, felt it for weeks after! The bloke that brought it over had a import Rottie too, although the Rottie had the size, the sheer strike of the Dobie was awsome. This thing (Doberman) just didn't 'quite' look like your average breed type and its 'switch on, switch off' nature was quite un-nerving with this particular dog..... Very disimilar to the leggy, nervy types seen about the UK. The majority of criminals in this world are 'petty' and the vast wouldn't have a clue as to which dogs will 'GO' if they came into contact with one whilst screwing your propety. My advice, if you looking for a guard breed and your not familiar with them is..... Go for summat big and loud, you only are looking for the 'intimidation factor', Boxer's are a breed that would seem to fit that bill....? Just my opinion but if your looking for a working type please don't class the Bull Greyhound as what a 'guard type' should/could be, certain types of bull terrier have been getting enough bad press for more than enough years to warrant their extermination. Through history game bred bull terriers were selectivley bred to be 'man friendly' when handled during their work. This should always be so. Only over the past 20 or so years has this been turned on its head by 'people' (wannabe gangsters) who took the tenacity of the game bred dog and ideolised it as some sort of ultimate in man/guard work, only to the detriment of the breed. If 'used' in the wrong way Bull X's will most certainly be public enemy No.1. Leave as is..... hunting dog.....(with extras!) I'm not in Simomans league when it comes to training dogs or guard breeds but luckily, my BullX guards (as in a intimidating bark!) and looks the part BUT thats because naturally, in the enviroment he lives in, HE want's to do that...... naturally! i dont know if i'm right or wrong, but it seems using a pit bull or terrier type for man work is a bit insane. that breed is designed to seek and destroy. and if thats your goal *coughdrugdealercough* then fine.... but it just seems too risky to get a dog that goes berserk when its involved in a struggle... and teach it to "hunt" people... i know people who use pits for Schutzhunde and they swear by these dogs, then at the same time will say the dog is NOT good for Personal Protection. i suppose i could buy that. Sch. is a game. the sleeve is the target.... still not something i would personally want to try. Edited July 2, 2008 by BlueCoyote Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 i dont know why the GSD is the most popular except maybe its their clingy nature. I think its because they are receptive, responsive and historically have proved their ability in various situations (Working lines, not bench warmers). Bosun, some good points raised, I don't know if I will train another protection dog for my home, perhaps one that just lets me know if anyone is about will suffice? Who knows............. The trouble with manwork is it attracts the macho men who want a 'ard dog to make them feel tougher. I have never taught manwork unless I feel the dogs temperament was sound and a good foundation level of obedience had been installed. We had one 40 something tit from Derby who came with his shepherd for manwork. He came once but was asked not to come back because after a session he walked to hs van and almost ejaculated with pride when his dog tried to pop at some girls near his van. This numpty painted his escort van like aa American police car and drove the streets of Derby with the words "Security Dog" on his van.....he wasn't even a security officer............... P.S. Boxer :sick: trained a handfull and a some friends used to keep them, they all seemed to have the inteligence of a doormat and physical make-up of an asmatic sumo wrestler, I don't think they kept one past 7, they all died of either cancer or heart failure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Apologies Gareth for hijacking your thread................ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueCoyote 0 Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 i found this article interesting http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/dog/LA/distano2.htm German Shepherd vs American Bulldog as far was working/protection ability goes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Simoman 110 Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 Very Interesting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaz_1989 9,539 Posted July 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 Simoman, dont apologise at all mate. I have enjoyed reading all of the above posts through and have learnt alot. Cheers to all who have posted Gaz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BlueCoyote 0 Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 i've always been fascinated with bullbreeds - since before i was born, and while i was a little kid, my grandparents owned old southern white bulldogs (BEFORE they were labeled American Bulldogs).. so thats where it all came from.. my mom and dad always had shepherds or dobermans to protect the home and property and they were great, but i never did, and still dont like the shedding you get from a shepherd.. sure they shed the same as bulldogs probably, but there is a world of difference between a hair the length of an eyelash or as long as a blade of grass! the dogs dont go into the kitchen, ever, but i still find shepherd fur all over the table, counters, and sometimes on the clean plates! there's nothing like trying to eat your dinner and suddenly choking on a piece of dog hair that wasnt supposed to be there! if they could breed a german shepherd with a coat like a bulldogs then maybe i would like them better lol (joking, i have no issues with shepherds at all) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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