How Long Before The Dogs Ready To Work

[hily 379]

Not wanting to hi-jack the paperwork topic so I will just make an observation it seams to me that some folk who run lurchers and terriers don't appreciate the time spent on training gundogs as I see lots of topics about this or that pup ready for next season by the way I'VE GOT ME TIN HAT ON READY TO BE SHOT DOWN cos I don't really know how long it takes to train your dogs anyway for me the dog is normally about 20 -24 months old when I can say it,s good enough to work to expectation and not to field trial standards as I am not a dog trainer but just try to get them to work well enough for me so paper work gives me a bit of an idea if I would be wasting my time or not. Is it instinct and natural drive you look for in lurchers or trainable stock or both,

[Philluk 181]

What dog is it?

[Ideation 8,216]

Similar time with any dog I think, to get it to a real goo standard. It takes 2 years to make a dog, whatever the breed.

 

But the amount of precision that goes into a top spaniel is insane, and the failure rate is high.

 

I've seen some very good dogs and some very poor dogs...... I've seen some very well bred dogs ruined. But I'll tell you what I don't think I've seen a poorly bred dog make the top grades.

 

In any breed, blood is everything. You will get plenty of decent enough dogs that are of average breeding, and to be honest most of the dogs with all the ftchs in them etc are still just scatter bred to many extents. But to get a real high flyer I'd always be looking for a good line bred animal out of just the right stuff.

 

Of course you can get all that without kc papers but it doesn't half make it easier.

[Casso 1,259]

If you think about the two processes , shooting and hunting with dogs, the biggest think that stands out in my mind is the fact that running dog can catch and kill on their own,

 

And can do so from a relatively young age 9/10 months ish or younger, and what happens is it limits what's expected from a dog or owner in most cases not all , retrieve and recall , seems to be the primary concerns

 

One of the biggest issues in the lurcher world as is very evident from shelters which are full of running dogs and boils down to the same thing as mentioned is the fact lads think pups are trained because they are coming for titbits at an early age , recall at 5 months is great , sitting no bother , retrieving etc

but sexually maturity brings drive and it's a different mindset it's basically a new world for the dog but for a lot of lads their pup is trained and ready to go,

Gun dogs reach sexually maturity and are very much still a work in progress , they begin now working in drive with owner and because they cannot catch and kill their akin to a running dog the owner is their avenue to the kill ,

 

they need to listen they want to understand to work with the handler and all the time they are taking instruction while in drive which is the very same mindset the lurcher is in when he is running away from its owner,

 

Lurcher owners have very little control of their dogs in drive ,it's as simple as that and when the lurcher pup is started it's usually with another dog to show it what to do, as if a dog needs to be trained to run ?? Lads are doing it up and down these isles starting pups with other dogs , building excitement and frustration in pups , pups getting more excited more driven and when they get off the lead or get a run won't come back or take a few laps of the field every time they get off ,

 

that avenue to the kill is only the slip of the lead , no instruction no commands no be heeded, that to me is the main difference ,running dogs start working at the same time gun dogs start listening

 

there are exceptions or course there are and are some very knowledgeable lurcher folk and since I'm the 4th generation of my clan to run dogs I have a lot of time and admiration for the running dog but some if the younger generation coming into the sport are more interested in the kill then the hunt it's more about the size of the dogs head then the size of dog knowledge in your own head,

Best of luck

[geordieh 74]

Yes but half the idiots in the terrier and lurcher world think if you can call a dog off while it is working it is a shit dog and time to knock it on the head.When in fact they haven't got the ability to actually train them properly

Geordie

[hily 379]

If you think about the two processes , shooting and hunting with dogs, the biggest think that stands out in my mind is the fact that running dog can catch and kill on their own,

 

And can do so from a relatively young age 9/10 months ish or younger, and what happens is it limits what's expected from a dog or owner in most cases not all , retrieve and recall , seems to be the primary concerns

 

One of the biggest issues in the lurcher world as is very evident from shelters which are full of running dogs and boils down to the same thing as mentioned is the fact lads think pups are trained because they are coming for titbits at an early age , recall at 5 months is great , sitting no bother , retrieving etc

but sexually maturity brings drive and it's a different mindset it's basically a new world for the dog but for a lot of lads their pup is trained and ready to go,

Gun dogs reach sexually maturity and are very much still a work in progress , they begin now working in drive with owner and because they cannot catch and kill their akin to a running dog the owner is their avenue to the kill ,

 

they need to listen they want to understand to work with the handler and all the time they are taking instruction while in drive which is the very same mindset the lurcher is in when he is running away from its owner,

 

Lurcher owners have very little control of their dogs in drive ,it's as simple as that and when the lurcher pup is started it's usually with another dog to show it what to do, as if a dog needs to be trained to run ?? Lads are doing it up and down these isles starting pups with other dogs , building excitement and frustration in pups , pups getting more excited more driven and when they get off the lead or get a run won't come back or take a few laps of the field every time they get off ,

 

that avenue to the kill is only the slip of the lead , no instruction no commands no be heeded, that to me is the main difference ,running dogs start working at the same time gun dogs start listening

 

there are exceptions or course there are and are some very knowledgeable lurcher folk and since I'm the 4th generation of my clan to run dogs I have a lot of time and admiration for the running dog but some if the younger generation coming into the sport are more interested in the kill then the hunt it's more about the size of the dogs head then the size of dog knowledge in your own head,

Best of luck

So do you think a gun dog breed is more a pack animal and happy to work in a team to get a kill if so does this make the running dog breeds come from a line of single hunting animals (loners) or is it nurture and not nature.

[Casso 1,259]

The gun dog has the ability to put the working relationship first ,over the kill

 

To do this , if you think about it means that the feedback the dog is getting through the work the flow of the work with its owner far out exceeds the pull of its prey instinct to kill, much the same way a sheepdog refrains from attacking the sheep , both are displaying prey drive which is a state of harmony the dog tunes to with its owner in both these cases,

 

In the general scheme of things prey instinct is how most animal stay alive, animal sees small animal, animal chases and kills smaller animal , it's a load unload system , big animal gets loaded up by sight of smaller it get energised it acts on that feeling by way of chasing and catching if possible,

 

I came across a story in a book on wolves before where a bear had broken into a large shed containing a few hundred sheep , when the shepherds arrived the next day they found every single sheep had been killed but among the dead sheep was a sleeping bear , not one sheep had been eaten the bear had it's prey instinct stimulated time and time again by the movement of the flock , it's a lot like how a running dog functions and the more sight hound blood in the dog the harder it is to control it's instincts

 

For me the gun dogs and shepherding breeds have evolved further up the canine ladder as far as working in tandem with man goes , they have an ability where working with man is their number one priority not the kill, its in their nature , they can make themselves social because that's what works best for the partnership

[Poacherspocket 189]

Iv grown up with labs but recently got 2 lurchers alongside my dads lab. U agree lots of idiots with lurchers who just want to kill stuff but to be fair for the majority of people with running dogs they dont need to be all that trained if their lamping its just experience that the dogs need. If there recall is good and they dont hunt up youve cracked it. But lads with true ferreting dogs that take the sport seriously will tell you a ferreting dog isnt born over night just like many gundogs the dog must be steady, take hand signals, leave its quarry, hold, retrieve and most of all not become distracted. Many lads will use a dog for ferreting but by no means is it a out and out ferreting fog till it can master those skills.

[ftm 3,357]

a good ferreting dog is a joy to watch but I reckon a gun dog could do same job [apart from catching escapees] my last ferreting dog was a pure collie and a joy to work with in all hunting aspects

[Poacherspocket 189]

If I was after a pure ferreting dog a reverse bred collie greyhound would be my number 1 choice there a few videos on youtube in the dales of a chap with one and it is perfect for it. Agreeably a gun dog could ferret but it wouldnt be ideal not everywher you can net so you do need the added speed. Recently I ferreted a large hedgerow and I worked and netted one side and my dog worked the other catching what bolted from the other side without nets on. I had to rely on my dog to retrieve to me laid on my stomach under the hedge row. I think in a nutshell an averagely trained lurcher can be fun and worked happily but an averagely trained gundog would be nothing but a pain in the arse due to the environment there in like the noise guns other dogs and game. Il be honest my dads lab is nothing but a pain in the arse my collie x is million times better. Unfortunately with my dad being a pub landlord the lab is walked by a few customers which is great for him hes the happiest lab in the world but hes picked up a million bad habits.

[Phil Lloyd 10,736]

It realy is a case of,.'Dogs for Jobs'....you can get certain, individual animals, that become incredibly versatile,.but as a rule, it is foolish to go against 'that which man has created '...Obviously you can get a few lurchers that work on the pheasant shoot,..and many gundogs which mark up a bury and wait patiently on a warren for a net to fill,...but,..in my opinion,...why rock the fecking boat,..why make life complicated

 

Personaly, I only have need for a mouching/ferreting cur,.anything else would be wasted on me,..but,..having travelled all over the UK to hunt rabbits, I would maintain that it is best to choose a type of dog,. that suits your own geographical area,....

[dogs-n-natives 1,181]

Hiya Hily mate,

 

As you know I used to work spaniels, now Im the forst to admit, that my training plan, isnt much of a plan, and my standard in comparison to a field trial dog would be laughable. but I worked my spaniels to rat and fox, as much as partridge and rabbit and everything in between, so I always just kept my head down and did things my own way. I dont think you have much to learn about training spaniels, as the ones I seen were very good dogs under the gun.

 

A few fleeting thoughts on lurchers and terriers...

 

Ive had a few lurchers, and a bunch of terriers... but I find them hard to compare to the training of gun-dogs, as apart from general obedience, their work is done alone, and relies heavily on a natural instinct that usually manifests from careful breeding, (as it does in spaniels too) but I feel that, as spaniels have to be kept constantly 'under the thumb' while working, a terrier, when working, MUST be the most bone headed, stubborn and determined critter going! Similarly when a lurcher is in pursuit of its prey, no amount of training will make it catch that prey, but certainly good rearing with good food will give it the best of chances.

 

I hope your young one is shaping up nicely Hily...

 

All the best

 

DnN

[mark williams 7,550]

I once owned a Jack Russell x Whippet brindle lurcher (Brett) - he was such a good dog for scent, catch and retrieve, retrieving shot game over land or water any time of year,the lamp and rabbits, superb intelligence and then the travellers started offering serious money for him, thats how good he was

I first showed him a shotgun at about 9 months after a lot of dummy retrieval to a starter pistol, by the time he was three years old he could find a rabbit/ partridge/ pheasant at 500 yds with the bloody wind behind him!.

We worked together until old age caught up with him.

It has taken 25 years to get me to want another dog and to even try to match him would be like winning the lottery.

I might look at Collie lurcher 1st cross and also a good strong German Short Haired pointer for shooting over with the shot guns.

 

atb

Edited May 1, 2014 by mark williams