A Strange Standard .....

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

It's no good. I've just got to get this off my chest .....

 

I found myself talking to someone, in PM, on a bird forum.

 

Now, I'd just like to point out that I'm a member of various bird boards now. And, in all of them, as far as I'm aware, I list my self as a Ringer. And, obviously, I carry the handle, " Outlaw Pete ".

 

So, anyway, I'm talking to this native bird keeping enthusiast, about some mundane thing. When the conversation swings round to ringers and such on bird keeping boards.

 

Gist of it is that I should jolly well expect the cold shoulder. Because our sort aren't welcome, 'snooping and digging' on such places

 

I'm like; " ". So, by way of explanation, this guy goes onto say how, many years ago, his mates Dad was caught, red handed, catching wild birds and caging them.

 

He had his bird lime and all the gear. Shed load of unringed birds. Bang to rights.

 

Now, of course, the average copper shouldn't be expected to know a goldfinch from a great tit. And they needed to know exactly what this chap had, to present to the courts.

 

What did they do? They called in the local Ringer. Here's a man who could go through the birds and say, with absolute certainty, what species, gender and pretty much age they were.

 

This is no different to when they call out a local firearms keeper to despatch a wounded RTA deer, or what ever. Just pulling in an expert.

 

Well, it turns out the beak took a f**king dim view of bird liming birds and really threw the book at the guy. Effectively ruined him.

 

And, he informed me, That is why he ~ and, he reckons ~ plenty of others consider the likes of me shit.

 

Because these keepers and breeders of native birds feel we're sliding around their fora, like snakes in the grass, trying to catch them with their hands in the till.

 

Now, I mean; Forgive me if I'm being a bit f**king thick here. But, I got torn a new one, in bloody short order, the moment I popped up here and professed to catching birds ~ before quantifying myself.

 

Now everyone knows damn well who I am and what I do, we all get along famously. I love what you guys do. I genuinely wish I could do it too. But, that's my trade off.

 

So, what the f**k is that all about? A whiter than white bunch of native bird breeders being disgusted to find a ringer in their midsts?

 

What does that tell us, loud and clear?

 

F**k sake. Speaks volumes for you lot though. You welcome me with open arms. You obviously have consciences like new born babies. Good for you!

 

Bit of an own goal for matey though, isn't it?

 

Oh; And I invited him over here, to join in with the craic we enjoy. But, no. He doesn't come here. Killing things appals him.

 

Like I say; Strange standards .....

 

[fireman 11,563]

The problem with some(and myself if i'm honest) is the trust in "experts" and what they think they know,a well known(although i can't remember his name right now ) rspca expert in birds is a person who don't know as much as he thinks he knows but the same fella will stand in court and tell the court that certain birds due to the way they act and leg colour are wild caught birds and that can't be done by anyone.I have goldfinches some with pink legs some with black/dark legs all rung but due to them being in aviaries they are flightly when you enter the aviary and an expert (if it wasn't for the fact they were rung )would or very might well say the dark legged ones were wild caught and (if the ring was damaged in any innocent way)would stand in court and put his word on it and who would i be to say he is wrong?. Hence why folk may be a little off with you,just explain your'd never be a witness for the authorities.

[budharley 945]

The problem with some(and myself if i'm honest) is the trust in "experts" and what they think they know,a well known(although i can't remember his name right now ) rspca expert in birds is a person who don't know as much as he thinks he knows but the same fella will stand in court and tell the court that certain birds due to the way they act and leg colour are wild caught birds and that can't be done by anyone.I have goldfinches some with pink legs some with black/dark legs all rung but due to them being in aviaries they are flightly when you enter the aviary and an expert (if it wasn't for the fact they were rung )would or very might well say the dark legged ones were wild caught and (if the ring was damaged in any innocent way)would stand in court and put his word on it and who would i be to say he is wrong?. Hence why folk may be a little off with you,just explain your'd never be a witness for the authorities.

Haha Caton?

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

The problem with some(and myself if i'm honest) is the trust in "experts" .....

 

 

Naah. That wasn't this guys angle, mate. I mean, obviously; I've read the whole string of PM's. Which I can't repeat Anywhere. So, I got the full story, as it were, which no one here can ever have.

 

Bottom line was; He was suggesting ringers are on a par with an RSP.. type effort. (That's f**king fighting talk!!!) That's as f**king stupidly ignorant as suggesting the PDSA go about in Police type uniforms and " Caution " people on their doorsteps!

 

The PDSA is simply a collective of full time, professional vet's who give a portion of their time, for free, under the umbrella title. They'll no more come trying to jump over ye f**king fence than the vet' down the road will!

 

BTO (my governing body) exists, souly , to gather scientific data about wild birds. Usually focused on their distribution, numbers, movements and trends.

 

The vast majority of this is done by a network of thousand, if not millions of individuals, like me. I don't possess a black jumper with " B.T.O " across the left breast, let alone a white shirt or a peaked cap! FFS! None of us do. It's not like that.

 

Regards the " 'experts' and what they think they know " bit? You'd better believe it; An 'A' permit holding BTO Ringer would make your jaw drop like a stone!

 

My boss is an A + Trainer permit holder. He's been ringing for decades. His, completely fluent, knowledge of the subtle shades, shapes, conditions of the feathers on just about any native bird ye care to mention is encyclopaedic.

 

I can ring him up at any time and say; " Boss, I'm holding a f**king so and so here! What the hell am I looking for, to age it?! "

 

And, without missing a beat, never mind thinking, or going to consult some book, he'll just say something like:

 

" Alright, bud. Have a look at the greater coverts. The first five should be bluish. That'll make it a 3J. Or, if they look more grey? It'll be a 5. How's the tail look? Is it sharp or ..... "

 

That's a f**king expert! (3J, 4, 5 etc? Codes we use. Shorthand for the age of the bird )

 

So; If the Police approach my boss and say, " We understand, from your HQ, that you know birds, and can age and sex them pretty well? Would you come along with us, please, sir ....? We'd like to avail ourselves of your knowledge. " What's he supposed to say?!

 

That Ringer didn't grass the bird catcher up. He didn't point the finger. He probably had little to say about the issue of anyone catching birds and keeping them. What's that got to do with him? He's not a f**king Policeman. He's just a bloke with a hobby.

 

Bottom line is; I've been PM'd by lads on here. " My mate's trapped a goldy with one of your BTO rings on it. What can he do? " My answer? 'Tell him to let it go! And to stop catching birds in the middle of the f**king breeding season!!! "

 

Another guy; " I've seen a ringer acting thus. Is it legal? I'll not mention location, as I wouldn't want to get him in trouble. " My answer? 'It's within the guidelines. Though, I don't personally like it. But; I'm not a f**king Policeman anyway.'

 

See? I'm just a bloke ~ who rings birds. For anyone to suggest all of us are sneaking round, trying to pin one on anyone else? Sorry. That's just f**king arse!

[taz2010 1,297]

ive bred goldies 20 years now and like ya say fireman ive bred them with white legs and black legs due to them been in the aviary,but some so called birdman would dispute that a captive bred bird should have white legs ,id say totally bullshit half have never even bred a bird let alone know what one should look like

[fireman 11,563]

I think your missing the point of where the experts knowledge ends pete,ok your teacher may well be able to age,sex and tell you more detail about a bird than a captive keeper could but one thing he cannot tell is if a bird is captive bred by the way it acts or looks,but if he was approached by the powers that be and went through someones birds and picked out a few with miss shapen rings or even unrung bird he may well then be asked to stand up in court and give his professional opinion that these birds could due to their flightyness and dark legs may well be wild caught and like i say who would we be to argue otherwise against such a expert?.

When i looked at the goldies Taz gave Gnasher the first thing i thought was "there's some birds that have never wanted for anything due to them having black legs like wild ones do but to that twat Caton (cheers Bud ) the leg colour could well have him taking them off and him trying to tell a court you can't get black legged captive birds so they must be wild caught and you'd get f*cked for it,like i say don't take it personal but trust is a special thing in the bird world and were all a bit funny about strangers really. .

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

I think your missing the point of where the experts knowledge ends pete .....

 

 

Au contraire, my man. I thinks it's you guys that are adopting quite a skewed notion about us ringers

 

We deal in (as close as we can discern it) scientific fact. Our standard guide to this fact is " Identification Guide to European Passerines " by Lars Svensson.

 

It's a quite revoltingly in depth and detailed examination of the most headache inducingly 'minor' details of a birds individual feathers. I delve into it and try not to scream. My boss doesn't look into it. He's memorised it!

 

However, just for you, I've looked. My mind almost shut down, just scanning over the minutiae of goldies feathers. (Frankly, I must get back to it. I now see there's important and discernible stuff happening with goldies, right now. I could more accurately label my catches, if I take this on board)

 

Point is though; My boss works by Svensson. Svensson never once mentions goldies legs. God gave birds legs for us to put rings on!

 

If 'asked', by the police, to examine some captive birds and state his findings? My boss would give the gender and a close approximation of the ages of any birds he examined.

 

Legs wouldn't come into it. Nor would rings (Lest they be Ringers ones). Nor would flightiness. Svensson doesn't Do flightiness in captive birds. It's completely outside of our remit.

 

No. We work by the colour, shade and shape of a birds feathers. Eye colour, in some cases. Shit like that. But, ask a ringer what he thinks of a non ringer ring? Flightiness. Or the colour of a goldfinches legs? They'd look at you blankly and ask; " How the hell should I know?! "

 

It's like asking a zoo keeper how to hunt elephants. Or a hunter how to care for them in captivity. Same creatures. Two completely different aspects of expertise.

 

No. The powers that be would need an authoritative Aviculturist to sort out issues surrounding captive birds.

 

Bottom line is that No Ringer could testify as an 'Expert Witness' regarding the provenance of captive birds. Because we simply wouldn't have a f**king clue about it!!!

 

 

Now, who's this " Caton " c**t ye keep mentioning? Obviously got a hard on for aviculturists. Massive agenda. Bent as a nine bob note ~ yet has managed to wangle legal recognition?

 

Loads of money behind That c**t, obviously Bought influence. So: Which 'Arse' does he work for?

[fireman 11,563]

You and me know that but other bird keepers don't know who you are or why you do it,there just being cautious that's all and flightiness,leg colour are both things that a legal expert would/will/does use to wrongly hassle captive keepers.You asked why there being like they are and that is why imo mate.Just to add one legal expert round these parts is a ex copper who is a world chapion captive bird breeder who has written a book and in it them he tells of getting licences for trapping wild birds for captive breeding projects but he'd still get lads nicked for birds with slight disrepancies,so anyone can be "the enemy"

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

One legal expert round these parts ... is a world champion captive bird breeder who has written a book ... but he'd still get lads nicked for birds with slight discrepancies.

 

 

Oh, that's f**king rich, that is! So; They're all moodying round, casting their sneering looks at me; When the f**ker they Really need to watch out for is one of their very own?! Priceless!

 

I wonder how many of then slide around here, checking things out? That'll give them something to go home with

 

Done and f**king dusted!

[gnipper 6,973]

Going slightly off subject I understand why ringers trap and ring birds and take their information etc but I can't understand why anyone would need a trap for in an aviary and the fact people advertise aviary traps about on these sites must surely fuel the mistrust that the authorities have against native bird keepers?

If I wanted a bird out of my aviary I want it there and then with a net not catch and stress them all as you can guarantee it'd be the last one you caught the one you needed.

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

I've never really given the concept of trapping inside an aviary a lot of thought, to be honest, Gnips. I do *like* ye point about the one ye want likely being the last bugger caught though! Most likely very true

 

Dunno. I guess, if ye have to catch up all ye birds, for pairing up in the cages for breeding, or what ever? I'd happily use a multi trap cage. You people pop ye birds in little mule and travelling cages and think nothing of that. I can't see a lot of difference.

 

Maybe it's just me? I have a natural 'thing' for traps. I feel there's a poetry to them. Anyway; Dodgy ground, mate, decrying the advertising of traps. Anti's started that game on ebay. Perfectly law abiding people were buying and selling gin traps. Collectors items. £100's of pounds, many of them.

 

Then the Anti's started. 'Why are people buying and selling these things? It doesn't sit right with us! STOP THEM!!!'

 

F**king stopped them alright. Now ye can't so much as offer a bottle of Gordons on there, without five thousand tree huggers stream in to check ye listing.

 

Want to catch a rabbit? Don't need a £300 antique to do it.

 

Want to catch a wild finch? Any kack handed monkey can knock up a functioning trap cage, out of scrap. I made one this afters

 

J Clip some weld mesh together. There's a tiny little cage to put a mule in. But, no. People like the ornate. Crafted. Quality. What's wrong with that?

 

I imagine it's the same with aviary traps. They're to be admired and taken pride in. Want to just sneak about the wayside, catching birds for nefarious purposes? Personally? I'd use stuff knocked together in an hour. Shit I could just walk away from if it all went tits up

 

Of course; As it is? I'm allowed to trap wild birds. I only do it on my own land. So, I enjoy the best of both worlds. I can use nice traps and take pleasure in their ownership as much as their use

 

Aren't I the smug bast@rd?

 

 

 

 

[fireman 11,563]

I've been lent a aviary trap and i'm going to try it out as i can see my aviaries from my living room window and i'm justseeing if it's easier on the birds than me chasingthem round,i've a fewcinny redpolls and greenfinches to catch up and seperate off and i know the redpolls will go in it when i bait it with a few mealworms and i do think it'll be stressfull for them Gnipper but i do know what you mean about the selling of traps and the link with us and wild bird trapping.

I'll let you all know how i get on with it.

[Outlaw Pete 2,224]

Fires; I find (Lesser) redpolls the most enchanting little things, in the hand. Very calm.

 

In all honestly? A great many birds seem to take a while even to realise they've been trapped. I've seen them pick up a peanut, then calmly try to figure out how the hell they get up into that tree with it!

 

Tits try their level best to escape, once they twig they've been caught. But, they're f**king mental anyway! Had a great tit the other day ~ mean't to mention it:

 

I put my hand in the catching box? He's jumped on my finger and started hacking away at me!

 

Drew him out and was examining him. He's biting and twisting. Determined to eat a bit of me.

 

Popped him in the pepper pot. Weighed him and headed for the front door. Then I hear, " Tock! Tock, Tock! Tock, Tock, Tock, Tock! "

 

Mad little c***s inside that pot. Straight jacketed by it. But, by god, he's still gonna give it some shit! Pecking the f**k out of it in there! Fearless little sods!

 

Anyway, yeah; Unless ye looking at transferring, aviary to aviary? I'd consider how ye going to get the trapped birds out. That is where stress, and even injury / escape can happen.

 

That's why I have my own traps specially made. They dock against my catching box and the bird just hops in. You could have your own trap(s) made so that they'd dock to ye cage doors .....

 

[Shamo 319]

Rodger Caton is an arrogant twat and Poacher turned Keeper. Unfortunately, he is considered an EXPERT in the laws Eyes............Lenin said that "if you tell lies enough times, eventually they become the truth". To prove his point about steadiness of Captive bred Birds, he uses a DVD of an obviously Hand reared Haw Finch and goes on to explain that Captive bred Birds will stay on their Perches and not flit around when you go near them. He also adds the lie about the Black Leg thing! SOMEBODY needs to be available for the defence when these cases get to Court, SOMEBODY with years of experience who will get up and refute what he says....as the truth. The main problem is it is a 'reverse burden of proof' affair, the exact same as being accused of digging Badgers.

You need to understand Pete, that there has been many years of pressure to stop people keeping Birds which come under The Wildlife and Countryside act, namely all British/European Birds which require 'Closed Rings'. The sort of people who have campaigned for this sort of thing are people OUTSIDE the Hobby, hence people OUTSIDE who have an interest in Birds are treated with suspicion.

 

There are MANY times where, lets say, Animal Hobbies have been infiltrated by so called sympathetic to the cause people, only for it to come back and bite the Hobby in the arse. I don't trust you 100% mate, but happy to be civil and talk with you about some stuff....to a point. I call it "a healthy mistrust"...lol. ESPECIALLY in this modern Internet World.

[fireman 11,563]

Spot on Shamo and very well put ,we have to prove our innocence Pete,in ALL other british law they have to prove your guilty and folk like myself who've only been in the hobby a few years have no chance against these "experts" even if they have never bred a bird as to be honest unless you've sat and watch a nest for hours on end,day after day,year after year like we all do and get hands on if we have to then any "Expert" is only really exspressing a opinion on what he's read or been told on nest behavour and not in full knowledge as it were.

That fella who is a expert i've spoken about has also campaigned for many many years to keep the hobby alive and i've met the fella a good few times and he's been a real gent and i can ring him for help anytime as it were,so a wrong un or a good un?,depends how clean your birds are legaly really eh .

Edited February 18, 2014 by fireman