scotty cramp

[sallie 67]

Yesterday took my patt out for a mooch around and im assuming she got over excited as this is one of the causes of this, when we got back after id cleaned her down within 10 minutues her back end gave way her back arched up and looked as though she was going to fit. She went very cold and her eyes glazed over. I held her tightly to warm her up and hopefully to stop her damaging herself. I then put her down to try and see if there was any damage, she jumped up and running around as if nothing had happened. I spoke to our vet as she was coming out to us anyway and she said it seemed like scottiy cramps and it had left no lasting effect. I was wondering if anyone else had heard of this in a patterdale.

[dillydog 8,423]

I've got a bitch here that did it last year and once again a week or two ago, i phoned the vet who told me not to worry. The bitch i have here Sallie is always like a bottle of pop ready to go off, she gets herself all wound up about the stupidest things and from what the vet told me i think thats whats doing it. It's not like a fit, she looks lik she's cramping and both times she's done it i've mistaken it for her going to shit in the house lol. Her eyes go a little glazed to and she's not with it for a minute or two after either. This bitch had a massive stroke while she was having a c-section and i put it down to that and her nature "excitable".

[sallie 67]

thank you for that this bitch is nearly 4 years old and not shown any signs of this type of cramping before, this was a really bad attack this is why it looked like a fit starting. She doesnt normally get quite so excited. Its good to hear that your bitch is doing so well after all she has been through.

[dillydog 8,423]

She's still working away Sallie, like i say she's only done it twice. The worrying thing is "how many times has it happened when your not there", or even worse while she's working ???. I think i'de notice it if it were happening to ground as youd get big breaks in her baying and the bitch now lives with me indoors, so i should be able to see if she was getting any worse. She's 6 going 7 this winter and apart from the c-section i've had no health issues with her so far.

[sandymere 8,261]

Is it the inherited scotty cramp, a disorder in serotonin, metabolism or a cramp 2nd to hyperventilation?

Both very different with different outcomes, treatment etc.

[sallie 67]

I didnt know that there were two types that is interesting any information would be appreciated, are there any tests that can be done to check it.?

[sandymere 8,261]

As its not a scotty perhaps scotty cramp is unlikely unless there is some in its ancestry? I thought your title alluded to the possibility. Alkalotic cramp is complex but interesting and I’ll write something later when I have a little more time i.e. lunch break.

[paulus 26]

excitable dogs especially greyhounds are often prone to cramp, trainers give vitimin e with there food to settle them down, pottassium is also used

[sandymere 8,261]

I saw this earlier this week when a needle phobic patient went into spasm whilst a line was being inserted into their arm, the 10 minute procedure was preceded by half an hour of agitation/hyperventilation whilst waiting and had resolved within a few minutes of it finishing.

 

In dogs respiratory alkalosis is usually caused by hyperventilation (excessive panting) through anxiety or excitement. In short the increased breathing rate reduces the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood which in terms causes a shift in the body's pH balance making it less acidic (more alkaline). The result is reduced oxygen to the brain causing fainting and electrolyte imbalance in the muscles causing spasm.

 

A slightly more in depth version.

Hyperventilation, the primary cause of respiratory alkalosis, is also the primary symptom. Humans also report dizziness, light headedness, agitation, and tingling or numbing around the mouth and in the fingers and hands. Next comes muscle twitching, spasms, and weakness. In severe cases fits, irregular heart beats and tetany (muscles locked in spasm) can occur. The muscle spasms can be severe enough to completely lock the muscle/limb into a fixed position for the duration of the episode.

 

With tetany within the muscle itself the alkalosis is disrupting the electrolyte balance, especially the calcium distribution. The low levels of carbon dioxide alter the albumin binding of calcium so that the influencing percentage (ionized) is reduced This disrupts the membrane potential and so pushes sodium into the cells which leads to too many action potentials being sent to the muscles resulting in spasm..

 

Link to similar muscle spasm in goats, different biology but similar result.

 

Ps same thing in greyhounds, not helped by adding vit E or potassium.

[sallie 67]

that is really interesting thank you, it has also been suggested that it could be spikes disease. I will certainly be doing some research and consulting with my vet again.

[paulus 26]

I saw this earlier this week when a needle phobic patient went into spasm whilst a line was being inserted into their arm, the 10 minute procedure was preceded by half an hour of agitation/hyperventilation whilst waiting and had resolved within a few minutes of it finishing.

 

In dogs respiratory alkalosis is usually caused by hyperventilation (excessive panting) through anxiety or excitement. In short the increased breathing rate reduces the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood which in terms causes a shift in the body's pH balance making it less acidic (more alkaline). The result is reduced oxygen to the brain causing fainting and electrolyte imbalance in the muscles causing spasm.

 

A slightly more in depth version.

Hyperventilation, the primary cause of respiratory alkalosis, is also the primary symptom. Humans also report dizziness, light headedness, agitation, and tingling or numbing around the mouth and in the fingers and hands. Next comes muscle twitching, spasms, and weakness. In severe cases fits, irregular heart beats and tetany (muscles locked in spasm) can occur. The muscle spasms can be severe enough to completely lock the muscle/limb into a fixed position for the duration of the episode.

 

With tetany within the muscle itself the alkalosis is disrupting the electrolyte balance, especially the calcium distribution. The low levels of carbon dioxide alter the albumin binding of calcium so that the influencing percentage (ionized) is reduced This disrupts the membrane potential and so pushes sodium into the cells which leads to too many action potentials being sent to the muscles resulting in spasm..

 

Link to similar muscle spasm in goats, different biology but similar result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=lmJDDC0e0bw

 

Ps same thing in greyhounds, not helped by adding vit E or potassium.

no so mate cramps in greyhounds can be caused by more than that, http://www.greyhound...s_-_2004May.pdf

and here http://www.monashvet.../greyhounds.htm

[Millet 4,497]

That goat vid had me laughing.. ..but it's not nice to see your dog doing it..

[sandymere 8,261]

Paulus what have the links got to add/prove? They mention adding supplements if there is a short fall, is there a shortfall in respiratory alkalosis?

In this case linking to a list of various electrolytes and there actions in the body is like giving a list of cake ingredients to someone who has burnt cake their cake, not overly helpful as its not the ingredients that are the problem.

As I've said before a little knowledge is a dangerous thing: when reading books one needs to be able to understand the relevance to the context.

[sandymere 8,261]

That goat vid had me laughing.. ..but it's not nice to see your dog doing it..

No it can be very painful, this is something I did back along,

 

Cramping, some thoughts on hypocapnia.

 

Thankfully cramping is not an overly common occurrence in dogs but

there are those that seem to suffer unduly and any dog can get cramp. To

my mind there are two common types, one is reasonable well understood, the other less so.

The commonest, and least well understood, is likely due to over exertion, an example

would be me mountain biking on Exmoor and doing a lot more than I’m

used and getting wicked cramp in my quads. A couple of months later

doing the same route at a faster pace no cramp, the difference

preparation in the form of two months training, Dogs suffer in much the

same way. The actual cause of the electrical impulse excitation that causes the muscles to spasm is not well understood but this relatively common form of

cramping, as with Exercise induced bronchspasm (EIB) and rhabdomyolysis (RMD), can be reduced significantly by appropriate preparation in the form of training.

 

The second form is another circumstance where cramping

is a major problem and, this in spite of good fitness, tends to be

seen in track dogs although lurchers and terriers can suffer. In these cases temperament is a major contributing factor and to examine this

particular problem I’ll go back to my early days.

 

Many years ago a fellow brought me a fair little track bitch for a bit

of a sort out, her problem was that she would cramp badly if kenneled

for any length of time prior to racing. This was a classic example in

that she would get herself very het on the way to the track and in the

kennel whilst waiting. There were and still are many causes proposed for

this problem and as many remedies that supposedly help, most of which

had already been tried without much improvement in her case.

 

I started with the basics of road work and gallops to improve fitness

and used electrolytes and vitamin E as these were thought to redress an

imbalance that was a contributing factor in these cases. After six weeks

I took her to a little permission and slipped her behind a hare. She ran

like a good un and although had no hope of success she certainly had

pace. With no cramping and nothing beyond a little stiffness over the

following days we were soon off to the flapping track at Huntingdon for

a trial one Sunday morning. The journey was reasonable short and she was

in the traps within a few minutes of arriving, again she flew no

cramping and a good time! I was well chuffed and booked a trail at

Henlow the next weekend. This time the journey was a little longer and

she was kenneled at the track for a while prior to trapping. For the

third time she flew out but alas locked within 50 yards with a major

cramp.

 

She went on to be a reasonably good flapper but never made it beyond

that, the owner took her back and I believe he continued at Huntingdon. A

well known trainer had had her prior to being brought to me and they’d

tried every supplement known to man but neither they nor I could find a

cure. Perhaps with more time we would have been able to better

acclimatise her to the racing experience and so reduce the stress that

was at the heart of the problem but the owner didn’t wish to invest in

a lengthy course of action for what was only ever going to be a middle

grader.

 

Traditionally lactic acid and or an electrolyte imbalance were blamed

in these cases but with the recent change of thought on lactic acid,

it’s now seem as an integral part of the energy cycle and not the bad boy any more it’s unlikely to be a causative factor. Then as these dogs don’t seem to have any ongoing electrolyte imbalance, this bitch had had bloods and they showed normal values this

theory also seems implausible. The stress response was a major clue but

at that time neither I nor my peers had any idea of the biochemistry

involved and just blindly followed a set course of adding electrolytes

etc.

 

Now anyone who has left a stressy dog in a car will have seen the

condensation that accumulates on the windows due to the excessive

panting. This tells use they are losing water, as this is via vapor from

breath we also know that they will not be losing a large amount of electrolytes, boils a pan of salt water and the water will evaporate as

vapor and the salt will be left behind. Some salts may be lost in drawl

but not an excessive amount. Consider an hours car journey followed by

an hour in the kennel and you can imagine how much fluid might be lost,

this can also be a couple of hours for a lurcher on the way out lamping

etc. So fluid loss must be having an effect but it’s hard to put the

whole thing down to this.

 

Next we should look at those electrolytes, muscles work via electrical

impulses and electrolytes are the way this is carried out so they must be

playing a part. This combined with the pH of blood needing to be in a

very narrow band, outside of this electrolytes become unbalanced, we may have a clue as to what is going on. Respiratory alkalosis, in this

situation a self limiting short term effect, could be the culprit.

 

In every day terms hyperventilation, breathing to fast, for an extended

time will lead to the body blowing off to much carbon dioxide, as this

is an acid in the blood the blood will become less acid, more alkaline,

which leads to a reduction in serum calcium, this could well be the reason for cramping. Its well known symptom in people with cramping being a commonly seen side effect of hyperventilation, hence why they were given a paper bag to breath into, it made them re breath their carbon dioxide in theory increasing it so reducing symptoms of faints, dizziness, fits, cramps etc.

 

Perhaps this is why the remedies don’t work in these cases; boosting

electrolytes such as potassium etc will not help as the body just

excretes the excess as there isn’t a true underlying deficit, the same

with bicarb, the serum levels always go back to the set mean. It’s

the hyperventilation that brings about the imbalance by temporarily shifting rather than there being a true deficit.

 

This leaves us with behavioral intervention rather than supplementation as the best coarse of action.. So proper introduction to racing/working to reduce the stress response coupled with proper physical training to prepare for the exercise to be performed and one should get a reduction in the incidence of cramp, (in theory).

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2012 by sandymere