3 good reasons

[Caprelous 217]

I am sorry about my preavious, post I do see the need for standards within the deer stalking arena,of the sport and in fairness I did not take time to read the starting post properly,just a bad day really, and people like you STU are the salt of the eath in my book, for spending your time to help others within the sport,I myself take kids out ferreting duck shooting,and a fair few new starts into the sport,see I believe pasionately that they are the future of it,and the one thing that will help stop the idiots banning it,over the last few days I have had two different people out stalking with me, granted one was my son his first time,

The clarity you have just cast on the subject/process of DMQ speaks volumes its clear and concise,which means to me you are the type of person,who should be a AW and I hope you do persue that,this post has raised the subject again in my head and I think I need to box my DMQ2 off

ATB

Darren

 

I hope you do and if your on the old portfolio then maybe i could help[, feel free to contact me if you have any problems in completing the modules , hopefully i or my stalking partner/regional assesor can sort something out for you either way

 

 

Regards

Stu

[Caprelous 217]

Do you ever consider this as an evil you wish you never started though mate .If we'd all refused this paperwork and told them where to stick it we'd be in a better position now thats for sure .Red tape and more red tape designed to extract the last penny from keen sportsmen just because they are just that .Ive met some real pompous blokes [that were probably the same without the dmq mind] that blurt out all the gumph but do the opposite and vice versa .A recent fallow cull said it all .

Why should anyone need a piece of paper to stalk deer ,none of the other disciplines require it , if anyone can answer that truthfully then i may bend and do the course but we'll see.Insurance yes is a must but a course to prove you can do what youve been doing for years ,get a life ffs.To say it proves you are competent dosnt cut it either as compitentcy comes with time served im afraid and not a weekend on a jolly .

Stuart is clearly one of lifes gents but this would still be so without the paperwork to worry about .

 

 

Foxdropper there was no one worse than me for beating the no need to have paperwork drum and have been criticized for standing on my soap box banging it out good style and aint that the truth mate.

 

Many years ago I was a volunteer wild life ranger helping out with deer control with the Then Wild life Control Management team for the EFG at Eskdalemuir under the direction of R.Rose senior whose expertise is sought in forest designation World wide in Deer Management and Wildlife Management generally

I used to go up and help every other weekend and sometimes spent weeks assisting with the cull program , My interest was in deer and i volunteered to take the Woodlands Stalking certificate run by the British Deer society which in those days was the set standard to obtain in knowledge , I can assure you all that the Woodland stalking certificate was the exact format of the DSC1 qualification that we now have word for word there being no difference , except for the now introduced FSA carcass examination and control which has recently been added in the last few years.

 

Anyhow I came out of stalking through one thing or another and packed it in all together for about 10 years were i took up sailing although I still kept my rifles as I had facilities and land that held deer but rarely culled any.

 

In my profession which is a builder/tiling contractor I used to carry out contract work and became friends with a chap who was aware of my past involvement in deerstalking and control and he asked me to teach him the art of stalking which I readily accepted to do as I still controlled land locally.

Obviously it wasn’t long before he got hooked on it and decided that the way forward was to take the examination in deerstalking and it was at this point that i found out that the Woodland Stalking Certificate that I held wasn’t worth the paper it was written on and that because i had not exercised my grandfather rights which i should add wasn’t aware of the piece of paper wasn’t worth a carrot.

 

In the system if you could prove involvement however it could of course could be claimed back. I could have gone to my mentor R.Rose of course and ask for him to vouch for me and verify that involvement but I chose to start again from the beginning like everyone else and sat my DSC1 I also because I was concerned of the goal post movements which seemed to be happening on a regular basis decided I would also sit the LANTRA exam in both large and small game to add another string that in the future could not be extracted by the system from my bow .

 

On completion of my DSC1 I immediately took out the DSC2 portfolio and set myself on a mission that those who was involved in the system would carry it out as per the rules ,also in the past i had endured many hundreds of pounds in trying to complete the system and in some cases not even seen deer so i insisted that all AW filled out the modules even if an ICR had not been successful as per the DMQ Rules, Many did not like my demeanor in this regard as they wished to administer it there way , but unfortunately for those that would not do it to the book the experienced my wrath.

 

The system is a good one and in its present format gives credence to a standard that the Deer Industry and Management has long been waited for ,and if those who operate within the curtilage of the system carried it out in the manner as it is intended then it can only benefit the shooting and stalking community as a whole.

So now I don’t bang my drum against but knock feck out of those that try to taint it.

 

Regards

Stu

Edited December 31, 2011 by Caprelous

[3175darren 1,093]

Do you ever consider this as an evil you wish you never started though mate .If we'd all refused this paperwork and told them where to stick it we'd be in a better position now thats for sure .Red tape and more red tape designed to extract the last penny from keen sportsmen just because they are just that .Ive met some real pompous blokes [that were probably the same without the dmq mind] that blurt out all the gumph but do the opposite and vice versa .A recent fallow cull said it all .

Why should anyone need a piece of paper to stalk deer ,none of the other disciplines require it , if anyone can answer that truthfully then i may bend and do the course but we'll see.Insurance yes is a must but a course to prove you can do what youve been doing for years ,get a life ffs.To say it proves you are competent dosnt cut it either as compitentcy comes with time served im afraid and not a weekend on a jolly .

Stuart is clearly one of lifes gents but this would still be so without the paperwork to worry about .

Well Said, unfortunatly the masses have set the president and the police, and everyone is leaning towards these qualifications. I somtimes wonder if it's a product of people trying to avert the blame - should anything go wrong - and maybe some one misinterpreted some euro guidline,don't know. I hate the politics of things they frustrate me, you can tell when somones with you in moments what expierience they have. Through the small things they do or not in some cases.I had a accident when a horse stamped on my head a month before my last stalk was due to finish my DMQ 2, and I didnt know I could get an extension. Thanks to stu I do now. I somtimes feel that 26 yrs of stalking should stand for somthing, and maybe its me feeling a bit resitant to change, but one of the best men I know, never had a piece of paper to tell him he was good. I know one thing I truely love - to take people stalking - it means everything to me to see their faces when they succeed and thats true magic to me.

ATB

Darren

[Caprelous 217]

Darren

The Extension isnt freeby the way , you do have to pay but everything isnt waisted, dont ask me how much as i dont know but an enquiry to DMQ would clear that one up mate.

 

Cheers Stu

[nastybilly 55]

very interesting stu and i can tell by your posts thats your a very knowlegable guy its plain to see that and a helpful one to, i dont think we differ all that much really and im not knocking the DMQ1 as such i think its right you should know a bit about what you want to shoot or kill so you can do it with as much skill and compedance as possible its just bthe price hikes i have issus with and they keep climbing i think if you do something you love doing and do it well it should be passed on as cheaply or cheeply ..( i dont know whats the birdy one ) as possable as you do stu and you are to be patted on the back for that but ya wont ever convice me that paper means it all.lol..(unless ya get caught short) .. and to be honest i dont think youd want to...lol..what really gets me are the ones that wave it in your face and run out and start shooting deer as soon as they can ..its true that money talks and opens doors and thats just the way of the world but in the stalking world it can get a bit silly ...theres been some really good replys here in fact i wish id have shut up .lol

[nastybilly 55]

by the way stu im an unemployed welder but i have done some building labouring giz a joab ..aww shit iv iv not got a cscs card so thats me had it again.lol..

[Caprelous 217]

by the way stu im an unemployed welder but i have done some building labouring giz a joab ..aww shit iv iv not got a cscs card so thats me had it again.lol..

 

 

I once went out with a welders daughter and I should add she had a acetelyne tits

[Caprelous 217]

very interesting stu and i can tell by your posts thats your a very knowlegable guy its plain to see that and a helpful one to, i dont think we differ all that much really and im not knocking the DMQ1 as such i think its right you should know a bit about what you want to shoot or kill so you can do it with as much skill and compedance as possible its just bthe price hikes i have issus with and they keep climbing i think if you do something you love doing and do it well it should be passed on as cheaply or cheeply ..( i dont know whats the birdy one ) as possable as you do stu and you are to be patted on the back for that but ya wont ever convice me that paper means it all.lol..(unless ya get caught short) .. and to be honest i dont think youd want to...lol..what really gets me are the ones that wave it in your face and run out and start shooting deer as soon as they can ..its true that money talks and opens doors and thats just the way of the world but in the stalking world it can get a bit silly ...theres been some really good replys here in fact i wish id have shut up .lol

 

 

My advice for whats its worth you can all beat your gums and let your jowels blow as much as you like about the DMQ system but it isnt going to change the system one jot.

 

There is no way its going to get recinded so that you dont have to have a qualification/piece of paper because it isnt gonna happen so you may as well resign yourselves to making the most of it and all bite your lip and express as many expletives as you can and just get on with it and try to complete it as least costly as you can , I look at it like this knocking your head trying to drive a 6" in nail into a tree hurts but its a great sensation when you stop its reet grand in fact

 

All I can say bite your lip get on with it get it under your belt and say nowt but the main thing is keep the goal posts in sight as these buggers keep moving them around the field ,sometimes they even remove them altogether so you dont know which way your playing or side your on. This I do know for certainty theres more to come more obsticles to climbin the future but if your on the rung or a good way up it you havent got to run as far as those trying to get on the field.

Its better taking part in the game than sat in the stands wishing you was taking part with those on the field

 

Best of Luck

 

Now scrum down look in

 

Stu

Edited December 31, 2011 by Caprelous

[Callum. 2]

Sounds like one of the things people will argue for experience or 'qualifications' in...

I'm just going to say I respect people with experience and the relevant 'qualifications' and I understand why the DSC's etc; can be/are a good thing to possess

[FOXHUNTER 5,020]

Stu makes a lot of valid points. I can see the argument from both sides. I completed my Level 1 in 2003 and my Level 2 in 2006.

At first I too was against qualifications but realised that one day this would be the way things would go. Not being able to get leases from forestry companies etc.

I believe that in the future the Police will not grant Deer on your FAC unless you have qualifications , I think some forces do this already although its not Law.

For a novice stalker who is starting out these courses deliver a lot of information and are a good grounding in starting your stalking journey. For the experienced stalkers out there I know experience is invaluable and much better than classroom work but times have changed and its very hard to get any experience these days unless you are one of the lucky few who can get stalking these days.

Its here to stay and will only get more expensive and complicated the longer you leave it so might as well just get on with it now.

I know at one Level 1 course the novices passed the shooting test and a seasoned paid stalker of 20 plus years failed .

Also just because someone has done something for 20 years doesnt mean to say they have been doing it right for 20 years.

Nobody knows it all and we can always learn , nothing wrong with education !!

[Caprelous 217]

Stu makes a lot of valid points. I can see the argument from both sides. I completed my Level 1 in 2003 and my Level 2 in 2006.

At first I too was against qualifications but realised that one day this would be the way things would go. Not being able to get leases from forestry companies etc.

I believe that in the future the Police will not grant Deer on your FAC unless you have qualifications , I think some forces do this already although its not Law.

For a novice stalker who is starting out these courses deliver a lot of information and are a good grounding in starting your stalking journey. For the experienced stalkers out there I know experience is invaluable and much better than classroom work but times have changed and its very hard to get any experience these days unless you are one of the lucky few who can get stalking these days.

Its here to stay and will only get more expensive and complicated the longer you leave it so might as well just get on with it now.

I know at one Level 1 course the novices passed the shooting test and a seasoned paid stalker of 20 plus years failed .

Also just because someone has done something for 20 years doesnt mean to say they have been doing it right for 20 years.

Nobody knows it all and we can always learn , nothing wrong with education !!

 

Agree fully with your point of view ,I think both of us have done some muttering about it in the past , but realise that theres no going back . and it will come police will not grant a F.C for deer unless you are on the ladder. and something else in the future will come into play mark my words all stalkers will need to have access to a trained deer dog with the correct training certificates before you may be engaged in a lease with the forest companies along with first aid certificate or ATV handling ce rtificate or at least a designated person on the lease will need to be qualified ,there will in the future be more hoops to jump through thats for sure it will come to pass as they say.

 

Stu

Edited December 31, 2011 by Caprelous

[bob.243 7,660]

DSC 2, Why 3 stalks,? If your 1st. stalk & gralloch etc. is successful, why have you got to do it again with another two seperate witnesses.

You do not have to pass your driving test 3 times, does a truck driver hauling 40 ton plus have to pass thier test 3 times, or a bus driver with 50 odd kids in a double decker have to pass thier test 3 times.

Whats the big deal in 3 stalks, I think it's about as before mentioned, it's about screwing money out of you.

[3175darren 1,093]

Stu makes a lot of valid points. I can see the argument from both sides. I completed my Level 1 in 2003 and my Level 2 in 2006.

At first I too was against qualifications but realised that one day this would be the way things would go. Not being able to get leases from forestry companies etc.

I believe that in the future the Police will not grant Deer on your FAC unless you have qualifications , I think some forces do this already although its not Law.

For a novice stalker who is starting out these courses deliver a lot of information and are a good grounding in starting your stalking journey. For the experienced stalkers out there I know experience is invaluable and much better than classroom work but times have changed and its very hard to get any experience these days unless you are one of the lucky few who can get stalking these days.

Its here to stay and will only get more expensive and complicated the longer you leave it so might as well just get on with it now.

I know at one Level 1 course the novices passed the shooting test and a seasoned paid stalker of 20 plus years failed .

Also just because someone has done something for 20 years doesnt mean to say they have been doing it right for 20 years.

Nobody knows it all and we can always learn , nothing wrong with education !!

 

Agree fully with your point of view ,I think both of us have done some muttering about it in the past , but realise that theres no going back . and it will come police will not grant a F.C for deer unless you are on the ladder. and something else in the future will come into play mark my words all stalkers will need to have access to a trained deer dog with the correct training certificates before you may be engaged in a lease with the forest companies along with first aid certificate or ATV handling ce rtificate or at least a designated person on the lease will need to be qualified ,there will in the future be more hoops to jump through thats for sure it will come to pass as they say.

 

Stu

I agree fully with you stu it will happen,but they are public owned forests in this country where forrest companies are employed by the forestry comission to manage them,and they are dictating to the very people who may even have comon law access. In some cases, its all a very complex thing, when you talk about deer dogs - thats from europe. I have two,1 german shorthaired pointer, 1 teckle terrier, before that I had a lab that did a very good job, in fact I have had deer dogs for over fifteen year. Never had one fail me. These certificates they talk about for them - who will be the judge for them,what makes them judge and jury over your dog? Truth is I can see the need for educational standard, after all there are alot more rifles out there at present, but I do believe they are pricing the little man out of the game. Why do we need to copy european hunting methods? Dogs are a brilliant thing to help you but there is still no substitute for being able to read the signs of bullet impact and knowing how to follow up a deer. How to spot the signs, etc. It seems like its all piling up to take more and more money out of our pockets.

What restrictions have the forest managment agencies put on other uses like mountain bikers horse riders? I dont see them having to have first aid certificates and BHS stage ones certificates before they hack into the forest unsupervised.

At that I am going to join the evening and wish all of you a very good, happy and prosperous new year I have enjoyed this topic but am now in danger of making a t*t of myself so for tonight goodnight.

[bob.243 7,660]

Stu makes a lot of valid points. I can see the argument from both sides. I completed my Level 1 in 2003 and my Level 2 in 2006.

At first I too was against qualifications but realised that one day this would be the way things would go. Not being able to get leases from forestry companies etc.

I believe that in the future the Police will not grant Deer on your FAC unless you have qualifications , I think some forces do this already although its not Law.

For a novice stalker who is starting out these courses deliver a lot of information and are a good grounding in starting your stalking journey. For the experienced stalkers out there I know experience is invaluable and much better than classroom work but times have changed and its very hard to get any experience these days unless you are one of the lucky few who can get stalking these days.

Its here to stay and will only get more expensive and complicated the longer you leave it so might as well just get on with it now.

I know at one Level 1 course the novices passed the shooting test and a seasoned paid stalker of 20 plus years failed .

Also just because someone has done something for 20 years doesnt mean to say they have been doing it right for 20 years.

Nobody knows it all and we can always learn , nothing wrong with education !!

 

Agree fully with your point of view ,I think both of us have done some muttering about it in the past , but realise that theres no going back . and it will come police will not grant a F.C for deer unless you are on the ladder. and something else in the future will come into play mark my words all stalkers will need to have access to a trained deer dog with the correct training certificates before you may be engaged in a lease with the forest companies along with first aid certificate or ATV handling ce rtificate or at least a designated person on the lease will need to be qualified ,there will in the future be more hoops to jump through thats for sure it will come to pass as they say.

 

Stu

I agree fully with you stu it will happen,but they are public owned forests in this country where forrest companies are employed by the forestry comission to manage them,and they are dictating to the very people who may even have comon law access. In some cases, its all a very complex thing, when you talk about deer dogs - thats from europe. I have two,1 german shorthaired pointer, 1 teckle terrier, before that I had a lab that did a very good job, in fact I have had deer dogs for over fifteen year. Never had one fail me. These certificates they talk about for them - who will be the judge for them,what makes them judge and jury over your dog? Truth is I can see the need for educational standard, after all there are alot more rifles out there at present, but I do believe they are pricing the little man out of the game. Why do we need to copy european hunting methods? Dogs are a brilliant thing to help you but there is still no substitute for being able to read the signs of bullet impact and knowing how to follow up a deer. How to spot the signs, etc. It seems like its all piling up to take more and more money out of our pockets.

What restrictions have the forest managment agencies put on other uses like mountain bikers horse riders? I dont see them having to have first aid certificates and BHS stage ones certificates before they hack into the forest unsupervised.

At that I am going to join the evening and wish all of you a very good, happy and prosperous new year I have enjoyed this topic but am now in danger of making a t*t of myself so for tonight goodnight.

All the best Darren, have a good one.

[foxdropper 17,092]

Hope 2012 dosnt bring any more restrictions to those of us that love our sport .Happy new year to all .