With my huntsman classic, .177 see how it goes, tried this morning out my back at 15yrds and had 4-5 pellets in same hole, I know its not hard at 15yrds ,but I'm off to give them a go at 30-40yrds, an il give my thoughts and pics(if they group well) if not I won't waste my time posting pics lol thanks to wedge for sending them my way after he didn't get on with them..Atb