p3d
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Posts posted by p3d
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An early photograph of a KBT litter
Also Kerry Blues were still trailed up to the 60's
Later the Staff / Irish Staff were the most prominent at the trials.
Working Wheatens were there as well but they were thought of as better in the field.
I was talking to men at the Westmeath WTC show who remembered them and their work.
To hear these men describe how the Wheaten excelled at manoeuvring corners while working
reminded me how the guys who bred these dogs had such a high standard.
But without a small Jack Russell to spend time sounding and allowing the dig to take place,
The strong dogs would have seen little work.
Some of these strong dogs heads would not fit into a burrow.
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Defo an animal top of my wish list
Len,
Be careful what you wish for
Working Wheatens are a liability in any yard.
I have had the privilege to know men who championed the working Wheaten and see their dogs in the field.
What sticks in my memory is an image of Sharks with legs!
They are quiet as a lamb and in split second your Jack Russell is lifeless in front of you.
That video was from a different era, we can admire those dogs and their history
but IMO they struggle to have a place on these islands in todays hunting world.
Perhaps on a different continent these game dogs will find work.
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You can get Blue Wheatens and also Wheaten Kerry Blues even today in litters.
There are from the same root stock and the Irish Kennel Club (IKC) split them into two made up breeds.
The colour is just a slight genetic difference.
Even the Glen of Imaal was split from the same root stock, early litters could contain one of each type.
The first Glen of Imaal show gives an image of the first Glens, they were much higher on the leg
than the dwarf animals that we see today.
IMO these three breeds are the same dog, just split by genetic differences by the IKC.
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The Westmeath WTC should be very proud of the event last Sunday, what a great day for working dogs and hunting in general.
It was a great to meet like minded characters and exchange ideas about the dogs we breed.
Working Terrier and Lurcher owners could get up to date information about Countryside insurance, Micro-chipping and IWTF membership.
Not from the internet but face to face with representatives from these organisations, a few people even got their dogs chipped on the day.
The prizes were second to none and Kevin, Pat and their families put in enormous work to arrange the show, 4 course meal afterwards, Music and Craic into the small hours (some got to bed after 5 the following morning)
For those asking about photographs take a look at the "Westmeath Working Terrier Club Show" page on Facebook.
The All Ireland digging champions were two lads from England and they beat off strong competition. Those lads can dig!!
For the few that are whinging about rosettes? I don't know what to say to you....possible grow up.
This is a bit of fun, every judge makes the choice based on his own preferences and we must respect their decision.
Its not easy being a judge, there will always be people who are disappointed that the dog did not win.
Both judges did an excellent job picking a dog as a winner.
I for one will be booking early again next year.
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Out of all the recurring topics on THL I find the stuff about the white dogs worked and bred by the men of Cork the most interesting. I realise that I'm treading uninvited on sacred ground here but I think it is fair to call them a Sealyham type. P3d states that these working terriers are not related to the K.C. Sealyhams or the Parson Russell's dogs. A good thing of course. Idiots ruined the good work that Edwards achieved within a decade or so of K.C. recognition. The only accurate record of Russell's blood only lives on in the K.C. Fox terrier
The Russell type and the Sealyham type existed before either of the aforementioned men became famous. Russell just bred and worked the working terrier that suited him. As did all the other working terrier men at the time but Russell became " legend " for whatever reason. Edwards did the same but favoured a different type . His dogs were just the working terriers of the time with bull blood added, it would seem, and then refined into what was his ideal through testing at work and good stockmanship. Resulting in a substantial terrier but still of a size to go to ground. Different to the Russell/Fox terrier of the day. A Sealyham type. Just history.
If Edwards was here now and shown a £1000 pure bred K.C. Sealyham ( with added Clumber Spaniel blood ) or a not for sale bred " for the type of burrow that they work the quarry in " and then asked, " which one would you take back to the Sealyham estate ? " I think he would recognise the not for sale type but be confused as to what type of dog the " pure " bred was.
Eastcoast,
Spot on, they are a type of working dog, ugly as hell normally but we won't hold that against them.
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Margaret,
Thank you, looking forward to a great day.
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Brenners original question was
Known Jack Russells, "one Eyed Jack " And "the General"
Sums it up,
These terriers were not related to Edwardes Sealyham Kennel and they had no relation to Rev. John Russells kennel either.
They are a rough Russell / Sealyham type. We have to call them something.
The type of burrow that they work the quarry in dictates the size of the dog.
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I wouldn't use a dog to guard anything of any real value.A dog is OK to stop an opportunist gear head who thinks they're going to rob your shed or break in and nick your tele but if someone really wants something it only takes a handful of slug pellets in a lump of meat and your guard dog is dead I under an hour.
I don't think it's been tested in court yet but in theory even with the changes to the DDA you should be fine if they were on your property unlawfully. Of course never say your dog is a guard dog, it's just a pet that lives in the yardJust curious as to what happens in law ,if your dog does bite an intruder on private property .All very well having a guard dog but you need to know the consequences too .
I'd think really carefully before getting a dog to guard dogs, if your dogs get out of the kennel will they try and fight the guard or vice versa? I used to keep bandogs to guard my bulldogs until one of my bulldogs got loose and decided he wanted to take on two 110lb bandogs
came home to one very dead dog and two banged up bandogs. I personally won't use dogs to guard dogs after that.I would agree with Downsouth, do not use a dog to guard a dog.
CCTV is more reliable and is switched on 24/7 and you don't need to feed it.
Lights that switch on with proximity sensors will deter a thief faster than a barking dog.
A stupid staff/APBT dropped over the wall will take care of any guard dog while the thief goes about his business.
A half decent staff/APBT will do the same job silently.
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The count down is on one week from today folks get them mutts looking well ??
Kev,
Really looking forward to Sunday.
Attached see the perpetual trophy spade that Barrie Wade is sending over.
It will be engraved for the "Best Entered Terrier".
Barrie sends his appreciation for all the hard work that Yourself and Pat have put into this show
and to send his regards to all the lads.
By preserving terrierwork in Ireland ye are also helping to protect it in the UK as well. "United we Stand"
Barrie has been with us from the beginning and this is a
fantastic endorsement of the Westmeath Working Terrier Club show.
A true gent.
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Great news Kev, must pay mine on the day
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Two zig,
IMO There is a lot of experience and training that only a good vet has mastered in their lifetime, for a question like yours it would be best
finding and asking a good vet. Once you are satisfied with the answer you can go about getting your medicine of choice.
Not necessarily from a vet, there are a lot of low cost versions of these medicines out there.
But be sure that you know, what medicine, for what condition, how much of a dose
and importantly with antibiotics, whether it is required at all.
If you are unsure about any of these questions, take the dog to the vet.
A good vet is a terrier mans friend, unfortunately there are not that many good vets out there.
This is what I have found, other people may have a different view.
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The Westmeath Working Terrier Club put on a great show and the I.W.T.F are proud to be associated with them.
Looking forward to a great day, if last year is anything to go by it will be the working dog show of the summer.
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Ivomec Classic For the treatment of; gastro-intestinal nematodes, lung-worms, heart-worm, eye-worms,
warbles, mange mites, Ticks and lice.
Active Ingredients
Invermectin........ 5mg/ml
S.E.S.K.U.
The dosage for oral or injectable is 0.1mg for a 22b(10kg) dog like a terrier.
BUT when poured onto the skin a lot of the product is not absorbed, it attached to the hair or driers on the surface.
That is why the dosage appears higher for the pour on version.
I have used this for over 3 years at the 1ml pour on dose with no adverse affects.
It works 100% for ticks and It cleared up a skin condition on a dog that the vet could not cure.
It is not a miracle cure for everything but it is very good at working on specific conditions.
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There are a lot of great terriermen out there, the trick is separating men who are in it for the dogs and........those who are in it for their own ego.
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Surely the Patterdales we know of today were developed and created by Breay and Buck and then the likes of Brightmore, Nuttall, Gould, Stacey, Roberts etc took them to the next level and so on and so on.
I'm an obsessive reader in anything to do with terriers and the first blacks that appear consistently are with the men mentioned.
In the good terriers I've seen if you trace the pedigrees back far enough it's all black/choc Patterdales til the early 70's and then its goes back to Lakelands owned by a few men that are in Plummers Fell Terrier book.
Neil I think Buck died 1996 not 80's.
Rabbit Hunter,
I think you have captured the truth in one post.
Would the black scottie type dog that Buck owned have contributed to the colour taking hold?
The reason I ask is John Park told me recently that he believed that dog was a factor in the change of colour to all black in the rough coated fell terrier, it became dominant over the Reds and B&T's.
I don't think there are many men alive today who have stayed true to the lines of Fell / Lakeland terrier as much as John. I had the pleasure of meeting him last summer and chatting about the old lines, a true gentleman and a wealth of knowledge on terriers.
It would be great to get those pedigrees on record so terriermen could know the real story of the Black dogs we know today in the field.
Too much mis-information being peddled by know-it-alls.
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LMAO.... its too easy.
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If someone puts two Black Terriers together and get a Wolf let me know please........that would be some 'throwback'...lol. I can go back over 35 years on a particular 'Family' of APBT and I KNOW they are all APBT, as we know and think of them as. If I go back further and further to when the generations of imports were about, in the 1800's and early 1900's and beyond what would I find?.........Staff, Bulldog, Hound, some European type of Mastiff?! Man used Dogs for Jobs, not as Pets, like the modern day Man unfortunately thinks they should be!! Herding Dogs, Hunting Dogs, War Dogs and most had to do a mixture of all the Jobs. Then came in entertainment and 'sport' for fun and they started to selectively breed. Hard to believe these 'Tea Cup' things came from the same Genus as Great Danes etc....lol.
FECK KNOWS WHY I WENT OFF ON THIS 'TAC'!!!......LMAO. My age I expect.
Shamo,
These posts would do that to you.
Science and genetics mean very little to dreamers, Hearsay and stories rather than Photographs as evidence or Printed media that would have been checked by hunting men in their day.
Pure Patterdales...?
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This article from the 1920/30's mentions the Patterdale/Ullswater/Lakeland as being the same.
Most colours described but not brindle.
Printer,
That is the best bit of history that has been put up on this site for a long time.
If you zoom in on the image , on the bottom right hand corner, he mentions Brindle as a colour that was found in the Lowther kennels.
The article itself sheds a lot of light on the breeding programs of some of the hunt kennels when it comes to their terriers.
The documents mentioned at Lord Lonsdales kennel and one of the hunt kennels must be available somewhere.
Lowther Castle library should have them if they took so much care of them for hundreds of years.
ATB
P3D.
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the old fell dog,patterdale or whatever ya want to call them were all rough haired in the 60/70s and like as already been said smooth haired was never know until mid 70s which was created with adding different blood still know lads with good fell,patts or whatever still going strong in the lakes and still keeping the old breed
Taz2010,
Have you ever heard or seen a brindle colour coming through in these Fell terriers litters?
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Some excellent pics there p3d.im not clued up at all on Patterdale history.but it's posts like you've just put up that are invaluable to anyone interested in patterdales. So saying there's staff type blood in them.then obviously there's got to be certain lines out there carrying pbt blood. Which might contribute greatly to certain Patterdale lines being to hard for there own good.
King,
You are not alone, nobody is clued up on Patterdale history, IMO it does not exist as history should at least be older than one mans lifetime.
The men who created the smooth black terrier strain are still alive.
Right now what these men know as the truth is NEWS.
When they are gone, it may become history.
I met one of these men at a show in Ireland recently, a gent as far as I could see.
He had a van with pups for sale, no problem, if he wants to make a few pound from his dogs thats his choice.
But it struck me that it would be great if that man or his friends could write everything down before it is too late.
That would be writing history for terriermen in the future.
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So could to days patterdales be defined as a bull X.p3d...This is the "original Patterdale terrier".
It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.
patterdalefromRichardClapham.jpgIts funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.
If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.
When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.
Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.
BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.
Strange really.
Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.
There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.
That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.
Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.
The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.
If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.
King,
I don't know if I would call them a Bull X, IMO They have Bull blood in them and some strains more than others.
What defines them is their ability to work, and men who have them in their yard know better then anyone how good these dogs are.
My opinion is that a terrier strain that has bull X in its past does not make them any less a terrier.
Brindle in a strain gives a clue that bull is in the ancestry, Very tight smooth coats are another clue.
Head and jaw size are also a giveaway. Let us not fool ourselves that the black terriers today are anything to do with the fells or fell packs from the past.
Plummer in his book "The Fell Terrier" crafted a story that was a good read.
In particular if you look at the photographs of Tommy Dobson in the book you would think Tommy started the
Fell terrier in his kennels. Plummer was selective with those shots.
Take a look at the photos below.
This is Tommy with his terrier s from 1890 (a young Willie Porter behind him) to sometime into the early 1900's.
Not a black terrier in sight!.......but a lot of other terrier types.
The last photograph is of a very early staff type of terrier (1910)
Not the fat things we see today but an athletic dog that would not be out of place in the pit.
It is possible that this type of terrier was used and would have brought the brindle coat colour into the lines.
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This is the "original Patterdale terrier".
It looks nothing like the dogs with that name today.
Its funny how there are no photographs of smooth Black working terriers before the 70's.
If anyone has a photograph of a SMOOTH black working terrier perhaps they could post it on here.
When Lucas wrote his book in the 30's, he listed every type of working terrier known to man.
Shelbourne terriers and rare welsh types , even terriers from the US and Africa.
BUT not a single paragraph of a smooth black working terrier.
Strange really.
Lets call a spade a spade........the fell terrier was crossed with a black staff.
There is a photograph of the black staff with white chest markings out there with guys who visited the breeders yard.
That produced a smooth black Bull X Fell that worked well.
Hard bitten , excellent dogs and they became popular.
The first "Patterdales" seem to have appeared in Ireland around the 80's.
If they were around before that, Irish terriermen would have imported them.
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"South Munster" Working Terrier Club. Founded pre 1977 in Cork.
One of the founding clubs of the original Irish Working Terrier organisation than ran the trials.
members; F. Longfield, P. and J.Manning, Tom ("Tarzan" from Blarney), and a couple of young lads.
Meetings held at the "Fox and Hounds " bar on the Northside of Cork City.
A great club to learn about working terriers and strong dogs, good days to remember.
I could be corrected on the name of the club, its a good while ago.
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1920S Film
in Earthdogs & Working Terriers
Posted
Have to agree,
The man who designed and printed the certificates and was one of the founder members told me he never rated the sounder trial.
It was well known that a lot of sounder terriers that were awarded certificates at trials were useless in the field.
A couple of minutes in a shore is no comparison to actual work.
The trials were all about the strong dogs and it was a competition that could give an idea of how a strong dog MIGHT perform in the field.
I always though they were as much a social event, similar to a good working dog show today.
Time to catch up with like minded terriermen and exchange ideas about breeding and techniques.
A different time, it is in the past from a hunting point of view.
The Kerry, Wheaten and Glen are different branches off the same root.
And this root stock is not too far back in history, perhaps even one generation.
Our fathers would have been alive when these 3 were all taken from the one litter, that is not history.
IMO the Kerry and Glen were selected for the ring because of Coat colour and dwarfism.
The Wheaten was ignored as the Cur cousin of both (from a showmans viewpoint) until nearly the second world war. (1930's I believe).
The Irish had to have a few terriers to compete in the ring with our English relations, so why not make up a few breeds (strains).
One good thing about the trials is that it concentrated men's ideas about working strains
and produced good working kennels and for that we should be thankful.
They also needed good terriers to dig the quarry and from these kennels we have some excellent Irish terriers today.