p3d
-
Content Count
440 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
2
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Articles
Gun Dealer's and Fieldsports Shop's
Reloading Room
Blogs
Calendar
Store
Classifieds
Posts posted by p3d
-
-
People should be more concerned about how they work rather than breed names and colour
Exactly, or how many generations on a pedigree.
-
I rose to the bait p3d. But why put it in the water ? What are you wanting to catch ?
Wait......Wait.....
-
Feckin priceless this place.......
Have to agree, great site, no money could pay for this craic.
-
3
-
-
Rabbit hunter,Netmaker, Eastcoast,
Ye are starting to worry a few lads now, are ye saying that this man is very knowledgeable about the terriers of the North.
That he is in his later years and has lived up where these dogs originated all his life.
That he has hunted, bred and showed working terriers since his youth.
That he is a Barrister so no slouch in the brains department.
AND he thinks that the "Patterdale Terrier" name being used for the smooth black dogs is just some men's vanity made up in 1970.
JA$U$ lads, that serious. WHAT are we going to call them now?
-
1
-
-
You are correct, fixed that in the original post. John Winch, Barrister.is it not ment to be john winch a well known guy, think he was friends with plummer and he judges many shows in real life he's a barrister, must be a old man now.
You would think that he would be a bit more careful with his words, as they say "words matter" and he might offend a lot of breeders.
Heaven forbid he offends somebody..
A lot of good men on have been breeding Patterdale Terriers for generations and are very proud of the pedigree.
Would be like a kick in the gut to find out that the name was wrong.
Probably might be best for the big breeders to write a letter to this man and tell him that he is wrong!
Anyone know which part of London he lives in?
-
1
-
-
the patt was probs in Ireland before then but was it called a patt? Either way I'm sure nobody has the definitive answer.Anyone heard of a man named John Welch, it seems he knew Plummer years ago?
He was mentioned in a terrier article in CMW this week.
He was quoted as saying that the "Patterdale terrier " name as applied to the black dogs was invented in the 70's by a few guys with big ego's.
Does he even know that the Patterdale was in Ireland before that!!!
Rob,
This guy seems to know, he might even have visited the North of England once or twice. It is even possible that he owed terriers!
-
is it not ment to be john winch a well known guy, think he was friends with plummer and he judges many shows in real life he's a barrister, must be a old man now.
You are correct, fixed that in the original post. John Winch, Barrister.
You would think that he would be a bit more careful with his words, as they say "words matter" and he might offend a lot of breeders.
-
Anyone heard of a man named John Winch, it seems he knew Plummer years ago?
He was mentioned in a terrier article in CMW this week.
He was quoted as saying that the "Patterdale terrier " name as applied to the black dogs was invented in the 70's by a few guys with big ego's.
Does he even know that the Patterdale was in Ireland before that!!!
-
I think the CMW is ok for what it is. It's very pc and I don't mean that in a bad way its on the shelves on most corner shops so it has to be. What's the need of showing a terrier smashed to bits or a dog latched on to a Fox? We all see it every weekend so why do we needed to see it in a book or mag. It doesn't do the sport any favour.
RF,
I agree.
The CMW and other fieldsports magazines like the Field are a way for the general public to learn about all country sports.
The very fact that they must cover so many different types of hunting is a positive thing IMO.
I would normally check out the magazine on the newsstand and if there is an article that I am interested in, I will support it.
The CMW is behind all country sports including terrierwork, perhaps we should be behind them.
-
6
-
-
King,
Those pics must have gotten deleted. If you PM me an email I can send them on to you.
P3D
-
The base will have to slope to a drain.
If you want a 4 inch ( 100m) minimum thickness then it will need to be 6 inch (140mm) thick at the high end in a 4m long run.
Or 5 inch (130mm) on the 3m wide side.
You can slope the base underneath the 4 inch slab but that would not be the usual way I believe.
No that's not the way, if you want a fall on the finished slab then you put the fall on the sub base.
Ok if that is the way to do it, as long as the slope is there. 1% is good either way.
-
The base will have to slope to a drain.
If you want a 4 inch ( 100m) minimum thickness then it will need to be 6 inch (140mm) thick at the high end in a 4m long run.
Or 5 inch (130mm) on the 3m wide side.
You can slope the base underneath the 4 inch slab but that would not be the usual way I believe.
-
Any one no any good barrister or solicitor in Ireland can pm num thanks if can help
pm sent.
-
Can anyone clear this up for me please?
I understood docking was illegal in the south now - by vets only and they were told by their professional body not to do it.
I just got sent this and I am left wondering?
http://theses.gla.ac.uk/5629/1/2014lederermvm.pdf
From P9 (P22 on the pdf)
In the Republic of Ireland the Animal Health and Welfare Bill2012has recently been passed in which tail docking in dogs is legal but is not permitted to be carried out by veterinary surgeons, because this is considered unethical by the Veterinary Council of Ireland (personal communication withAllan Rossiter, spokesman for Veterinary Ireland).However, docking would be permitted to be carried outby dog owners themselves. It allows docking as a procedure under “subsection 1 if done “in accordance with animal health and welfare regulations” and states that it may be carried out where a veterinary practitioner is satisfied that the operation is for therapeutic purposes and necessary for the health of the animal“. It is also stated that “A person shall not -do, or fail to do, anything or cause or permit anything to be done to an animal that causes injury (including disfigurement) or unnecessary suffering to, or endanger the health or welfare of, the animal”. Therefore docking is permitted but reasonably regulated.
HGN,
In my opinion.
According to the law in Ireland right now;
1; Only a Veterinarian or Veterinary Nurse can perform the procedure. This is covered under a Statutory Instrument, (an addition to the Animal Welfare Bill).
2; Every owner is responsible for the welfare of their animals.
If the long term health and welfare of the dog is improved by docking a portion of the tail or removal of dewclaws because of its working environment.
The owner must comply with the law and take steps to get the procedure done.
If the Veterinary clinics in your area will not perform the procedure and comply with the law, then the owner should take every step available to them to take care of their working dogs in any way they can. Keep a record of the clinics rejections, emails, letters etc.... it will come in handy if anyone asks.
We know that this is hypocrisy on the part of the vets, they insisted on getting their profession written into the law, then they pulled their support.
At this stage no one has any doubt that the vets acted in bad faith and have lost any credibility.
Don't take too mush notice of the reports coming out of Glasgow University, the authors are professionals and meant well but were out of their depth in many ways.
-
5
-
-
Really,,,,patterdales suffer the most abuse by idiots because generally they are fairly easy to enter and used by fools easily ruined ...A patterdales likes to work for its self generally...A border generally likes to work for its owner usually with a decent bond....In the world of the five minute wonder terrier man shoot them at 10 months old type idiot the working terrier world seems to idolise at the moment...The border terrier or any working dog is probably better off with cash hungry owners rather than the low lifes I've seen in the last decades that have done their best to destroy everything a lot of us held dear in this sport ,,generally.
Downsview,
IMHO the Border is a working dog of the past. There may be a couple of pedigree show Borders that graft and keep there owners happy but can they produce a litter of workers off them, I am not so sure. I can understand your post as there is a hard man mentality that can creep into terrierwork if not checked.
Any terrier that is worth its salt should work because it wants to, where the line gets crossed in breeding terms is terriers that have no sense. This type are easy to start and take very little input from a person who is not a dog man. Unfortunately they also can have a short working season. They spend more time in sickbay than hunting. This is not traditional terrierwork and would not even exist without the locator collar. But you cannot have that conversation with this type of person, they are too set in their ways. Best to leave them off.
-
Getting terriers fit isn't really a topic that's mentioned at all on here.And neither is diet.i haven't bought a tin of dog food for over 20yrs only raw diet the dogs get
I'm biking my bull x 6 Miles a day on country lanes.
I hardly turn a pedal he pulls me there and back.
The terrier is also biked 6 miles a day.
Then 2 Mile walk in the evening.
I've allways enjoyed getting the dogs fit.
And can't wait for the temp to start dropping in August to really get the fitness levels up.
What's your methods of getting your terriers fit.
For the coming season.
I know there's lads out there who dont do any fitness not even walking the terriers.
And expect them to work hard for hrs on end on a day out.
You aint going to finish the London marathon if you've spent 6 months on the couch.
Then turn up at the start line.
King,
Credit to you for putting the effort into your dogs.
It is interesting to hear the different advice form everyone about fitness levels required for hunting.
At one end you get lads who believe the terriers physical fitness does not really matter.
The other end want their dogs to be as fit as they can have them.
If their is a way to judge which system works best? One way is probably on wastage from litters.
How many pups from a litter end up working? Assuming that the pups are bred from good lines.
Can we judge the methods based on performance.
If a man keeps his terriers isolated in kennels and never exercises them, feeds them crap BUT the pups all work well.
Do we credit that method?
My own opinion is that if I am gifted a pup from good working stock.
In 18 months when I meet the breeder I should bring a fit and healthy dog into the field.
I would guess that most good breeders would look at the dog and know if I did my job.
More than just physically but also mentally the dog should be ready for work.
The mental development of the terrier involves a different set of skills.
Someone once said that you should never give advice to terriermen.
The smart guys don't need it and
The stupid guys won't take it.
-
6
-
-
Neil,
You are such a plonker, given enough rope you always hang yourself.
You cannot tell the truth to save your life, I was going to leave this alone but screw it,
lets put the record straight.
I will take apart your answer one piece at a time. Your comments in Blue
I know that that last paragraph was aimed at me.
You and the guys attacking Stopend, always the same few attacking him personally.
First off, Stopend has no interest in the preservation of any type of working terrier.
I said preserving working terriers in Ireland (terrierwork), read the posts carefully.
He was a devoted Jack Russell swapper 2 years ago, last year he was asking lads to sell him black pups and now he has so called Cork white terriers that he got off a man who's terriers are well known for coming away,
He has had Cork white terriers for the last 4/5 years, one very successful bitch which he has dug a lot of game with.
He has started other pups and one in particular has gone over to Scotland recently. The lads there have dug that bitch.
Early days but they are happy with her so far. So again your time scale is distorted.
This distortion does not seem to bother you, as long as you can attack him with some snippet of gossip you continue to come on THL and do so.
It is getting tiring and everyone reading your posts can see you for what you are ....a keyboard bully.
BUT, they must be breeding true to form because one came away after 40 minutes for him recently and refused to go back.
You no nothing of the yards where these Cork White terriers come from. In fact you no nothing about the Cork white line at all.
Some of the best terriermen in Cork came last year to these yards for breeding off a stud dog.
Not sure what 40 minute dog you are talking about, but whats new there. You just hear a rumour that a dog failed and a mans yard is crap.
There are failures in very litter, some dogs don't make it, thats the game we are in.
The first ever words I had with Stopend was when I asked him to take down pics of a lurcher drawing. Now he thinks he's the patron saint of terrierwork.
That could be true, we all put up photo's in the past that we would not put up today.
Times change and we learn as we go. But to keep bringing up a mistake from years ago.....get over it.
Stopend is no saint, neither am I ...neither are you.
If he loved terrierwork he (and yous) would have stepped aside because we all knew that most terriermen in N.I. wouldn't join as long as he was involved. You's all knew this at the time.
A lot of very well respected terriermen in Northern Ireland joined the federation at the beginning and stayed when times got tough politically for terrierwork.
They are still members.
You had a dislike for Stopend from the time ye first met, he thought you were a bully from your dealings on THL. (that turned out to be true)
I did not know you at the time as you did not know me.
I learned fast that while you are an intelligent man, you are easily led.
If you don't get your own way you can be disruptive.
You took some early members with you when you left. Some of them listened to your opinions, there choice.
They were a loss, you were not.
You, yourself can only contribute to any terrier conversation if it's something you got out of a book. There's something very Plummerish about you, but that to be expected from someone who got into terriers yesterday in his 50s.
I contribute to these threads usually about the history of terriers as I have an interest in the breeding methods, the lines and the men you started it all.
I was not around 70/80 years ago so history is history, photographs and books are all we have. Tend not to trust stories too much, found they have been unreliable when it comes to dogs,
I got into terriers when I was 17, dug with some very good men in Cork, that was over 40 years ago. Moved away in my 20's and did not hunt again until 7 years ago.
I am talking about digging now (not getting a terrier from my grandad when I was 4.)
So I have been digging for 15 years, I am 57 now. Not yesterday but sometimes it feels like it, time flys!
15 years, 30 years, how many years digging do you have to have under your belt before you can come on THL and have an opinion.
I don't go along with the notion that because you have been into terriers for a long time than you must be good.
A lot of young lads I meet are great terriermen, a small few older men are pure plonkers.
As for terrierwork in it's hour of need.
You know for a fact that I had 5 meetings with the Junior Minister of Agriculture ,Shane McEntee (RIP) who office was in my village and that got us a meeting with the Ministry of Agriculture who explained to us that terrierwork was 100% SAFE with the up coming Animal Health and Welfare Bill.
This was before the IWTF was up and running so you's part time terrier men who we left behind CANNOT give yourselves any pats on the back for saving terrierwork at all.
Wrong again, Shane McEntee did not get use a meeting with the Minister, remember I was there.
We did not meet the minister, we had lunch with Shane McEntee.
He was a great man and did his best to get us in the door to the department, but the meeting with Minister Coveney was arranged through different sources.
Minister Coveney had stated that terrierwork was not acceptable (Public record).
Some people were spreading the message that terrieremn standing up for themselves would get terrierwork banned.
Up to that statement from Minister Coveney, there were two organisations that were SUPPOSED to be defending terrierwork.
We believed at the time (we are cynical that way) and found out later as fact that these organisations
were willing to throw terrierwork "under the bus" to protect themselves.
So don't try and say anyone desserted the IWTF because along with myself some of the most respected terriermen from your county WALKED away from you and your dangerous sort, we didn't walk away from terrierwork.
I wont even go in to detail as to how you and your control freak mate nearly got terrierwork banned when you were asked not to contact certain people but you thought you knew it all. Terrierwork was within a hairs breath of being banned because of yous.
It went like this if terriermen fought their own cause and terrierwork got banned.....
then those terriermen standing up for themselves (I.W.T.F) would get 100% of the blame.
If it went well and terrierwork was left alone....these organisations (and the terriermen who hid behind them) would take half the credit.
Of course it was a no brainer for you, you cut and ran.
So, make all the snide remarks you want and I'll reply and I can even have disscussions on actual terierwork, can you, and anything I've mentioned can be proven by lads who reputations are much, much better than your's ,Corkman or Stopends in the working terrier world.
You are big on reputations, big on ego, the terrier game is full of good men, men you do not know.
Men who definitely do not want to know you.
Neil,
You have destroyed another thread with your personal attacks against one man.
You would drag anything good into the gutter with you and I know I will be sorry for answering your post.
But you cannot be allowed to keep getting away with this crap.
You are poison to the terrier game.
-
5
-
-
From reading above post from pd3 is it possible that buck/breay did breed close but weren't afraid to go outside if there was a better worker available,that they believed could improve on what they already had,and obviously these men were not kennel blind,so it would seem a bit of line breeding and a bit of worker to worker went into the the dogs they had,that and plenty of work but in front of there tykes and the best selected and bred from.
Smasher,
That was the point, I have only the highest respect for the Black dogs, dug over some excellent terriers from this line.
My interest was in where they came from, how the men who started the strain selected their breeding stock and perfected their line.
I put up the pedigrees from 3 men who are credited with the foundation stock.
Noticed a gap in the lined asked if anybody could fill it.
A case of a little knowledge looking for more knowledge. I will learn from anyone willing to part with information.
Have had PM's from men who know some of the history of this line and they are going to try and fill in the blanks.
Men who know Mr. Nuttall and his Son, have been in his yard and discussed the very lines shown here.
They also are not happy with the dog titled "Border Dog*" in the pedigree. and the empty spaces in that dogs history.
To learn form these legends we need to know their methods and what worked for them.
I will leave it at that. The Black dogs are not my specific interest, was more interested in the men who started them.
Don't really care what lads call them.
Stopend has more interest in protecting working terriers in Ireland than all of the people trying to tear him down
No matter how long it takes the truth will come out in the end.
Excuses for why lads walked away when terrierwork needed them sound lame at best.
That battle is over, you were there or you were not.
You can't go back now that terrierwork was protected.
Happy new year to everyone.
Last post on this thread from me.
P3D
-
2
-
-
Should have read;
When we check a pedigree there are a couple of things we can do to check if it is authentic.
First divide the years on the pedigree by the generations, in this case (1975-1920 = 55 years. divided by 15 generations).
This gives us roughly 4 years between breeding each bitch. This would seem high until you check in detail.
Buck/Breay bred a bitch and then bred her with her nephew a lot of times. this would have taken 2/3 years for the bitch to be proven (at least)
and another 2/3 years for the nephew to be proven. That tally's with the 4 year span between breeding.
-
1
-
-
What's in a name anyway.....
It is a great question, the answer is "not much" when the dog is in the ground.
But we are terrier men, more than anything probably dog men.
In general we are interested in anything to do with dogs, the name does not matter but IMO the breeding does.
The pedigree posted was from BN yard linked to a pedigree written by Mr Breay.
Possibly the only time he committed a pedigree to paper of his and Mr Bucks line
When we check a pedigree there are a couple of things we can do to check if it is authentic.
First divide the years on the pedigree by the generations, in this case (1975-1920 = 75 years. divided by 15 generations).
This gives us roughly 5 years between breeding each bitch. This would seem high until you check in detail.
Buck/Breay bred a bitch and then bred her with her nephew a lot of times. this would have taken 3 years for the bitch to be proven (at least)
and another 2/3 years for the nephew to be proven. That tally's with the 5 year span between breeding.
Also it was curious to me if the Breay/Buck line were closely inbreeding their dogs.
Where they did breed close generations (Blitz and Mick were full brothers) they also outcrossed in nearly every generation.
Usually to a stud dog from one of the hunt kennels but also bitches (The Orton and Tebay Bitch's)
They did not seem to mind mixing kennels either, for example if they kept going to one kennel you would assume they wanted a particular type.
Just found out that the Bitch Tanner was out of Mick (Full brother to Blitz) so the pedigree posted can have another 14 instances of the line added.
That will make 28 times that line appears back to the white terriers in 1920.
28 times is a lot and we have not finished yet.
It now is obvious why Mr Breay only needed to remember that particular line to write down for his and Bucks line.
He knew that it was used so many times, right back to 1920.
If a terrierman was going to continue the Breay/Buck line, should he outcross every generation like they did?
Or just inbreed the remaining dogs.
Also does anyone believe that Kipper / Border dog / Biddy could produce a Smooth coated dog like Judy?
That Border dog entry in Judys pedigree is unusual, if you are breeding a line form the Breay/Buck line,
would you not know a SMALL BIT about the new dog you were introducing into the line? (like where he came from)
-
5
-
-
Got it, Is this the same Biddy that appears in the Pedigree of Judy 1975?
I got the impression that Brian owned Biddy and brought the bitch to Breay's line stud dog.
-
It's the post with lots of photos on lol
I'll take a look
-
think biddy was from Roger West moorland I posted a photoAnyone got a picture or info of the bitches Worry, Tar or Biddy (Biddie?) from Brian Nuttall's yard?
Would have been around 1965 to 1975.
Glyn...
Was that a bitch Biddy, which post did you put up the photo on?
P3D
-
Anyone got a picture or info of the bitches Worry, Tar or Biddy (Biddie?) from Brian Nuttall's yard?
Would have been around 1965 to 1975.
Who Is This Guy??
in Earthdogs & Working Terriers
Posted
I have no doubt. Thanks Andy.