p3d
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Posts posted by p3d
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45 minutes ago, downsouth said:
How has a thread about Wheeler bred dogs turned into Nuttal using Borders?
It was a question relating to a post showing a Wheeler bitch? (Tess) that someone said was bred to a BN dog.
But work away with the Wheeler post, the question will come up again
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40 minutes ago, Glyn..... said:
That is not where the bull was added that was border terriers, I don't think Brian took a pup out of Dw litter I could be wrong, at that time he was trying to get away from bull blood , this doesn't mean he may not of used it a gen or so down the line, it was about 10 years latter Brian used a bull outcross
Glyn,
Why would BN not know the name of these Borders, if he thought highly enough of the Dogs to breed from them would he not know a lot about them. This was back in the 80's/90's, not the storneage. He could easily phone around and get the background or as he was going around the show circuit he could have asked lads about these Borders. Photographs would exist and their working history would be well known, where they hunt terriers from one of the famous hunts, where they owned by a man who could still be alive? Not exactly a long time ago (for a certain age group). BN was quoted that he bred away from his grandfathers fell terriers because they had bad coats for working the fell country. Why end up with a smooth coated strain?
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7 hours ago, Bryan said:
So Nuttal was making BullX's in the late 80's
But there's no bull blood in anyone's Nuttal Patterdales? That's handy isn't it
This might finally explain the missing “Border line” that appears in Nuttals pedigrees in the 80’s. Photographs like these are invaluable in any strains history. I could never believe that BN would know the names of dogs in his line going back decades from Breay and Buck but could only write “Border dog and Border bitch” for the missing line. Something was not right with those pedigrees. It was obvious to dog men that bull was added, but denied again and again by Patterdale owners. Perhaps this is the missing link?
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15 hours ago, Glyn..... said:
to be honest with you the genetic blue print for what is called the old nuttall is still there, Brian took from the litters what he wanted , his selection he took the smallest of the litters , selling giving the larger ones away , but even today the larger ones crop up here is a photo of a dog I bred along side his cousin, the black dog is more or less nuttall miner blood with a out cross of some of mine , but the guy who breed him has all ways liked a stronger animal , the main difference is less bull blood , although its not in the peds only a blind man would say a drop of the hard stuff hasn't been added , second photo is the stuff brian sold to NI the same blood i started with Penny Punch 1&2
Glyn,
A veey honest and knowledgeable post. Dont be surprised if you get pushback on the addition of a bit of hard stuff that is not in fhe peds. A lot of blind people around when it comes to pedigrees. Good luck with your prpject, looking forward to reading it.
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7 hours ago, Glyn..... said:
is it better or worse now
Glyn,
What year would that ad have been posted?
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Rebel,
This setup worked for me.
Cut the base of the bench so that it is a snug fit against the sides and back of the house.
Attach a board to the front of the base.
Fit an aluminium profile to the top of this board. (you can get these in different sizes in B&Q)
Screw the profile to the top of the board.
You end up with a wooden bench with one one exposed edge and this is protected.
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On 1/31/2018 at 12:36, Blaise said:
According to you, How many working terrier are registred to the Kennel Club ?
Not many in my opinion.
If you look at the Irish kennel club breeds, only the odd few Wheaten or Glen of Imaal terriers may be seen in the field today. The Irish and Kerry blue terriers were never really used as we know the breed now. The original Irish terrier was a very small digging dog, probably even smaller than a red fell terrier today. Original Irish terriers when introduced into the kennel club had two show classes for under or over 7 pound (3kg). So an ideal fox type terrier size.The Irish terrier and Kerry Blue today are not working dogs.
The Wheaten and Glen are from the same root stock. The Glen just had a dwarf gene in the Wheaten strain and the show people started a new breed. The Glen of Imaal is a desolated virtually unpopulated area in Ireland that has been used as military bomb range for over a century. there is no history of a SPECIAL breed that was ever started there.
Blaise the type of work you do with your terriers is the work that terriermen did in Ireland before the arrival of the locator collar. Single terrier below ground travelling 10/20 metres underground in a natural earth. The dog had to be predominately a bayer (sounder), otherwise the terrierman could not locate them to dig. Hard digging terriers would not last long.
The Irish kennel club terrier breeds could not travel 1 metre in a natural earth. Some of them could not get there head into the burrow. They were also hard dogs usually used and the end of a dig, when the small terrier earth dog had done all the work and the quarry was exposed to the light.
The Irish kennel club attempted to keep a connection with working terriers by building false earths and letting these LARGE dogs get tested. Early in its history some of these breeds could not become champions unless they had a certificate for working in these false earths. As you can imagine (there was a video of those trials on here recently) these had nothing to do with earthwork. This is what kennel clubs do, they attempt to imitate what a terrier has to do in the field but they do not really know what they are doing.
English Fox terriers (Smooth and Wire) and Border terriers were around and worked in the 1970's.in Ireland. I have seen a few of these dogs work and some of them were decent workers. The arrival of the Black smooth dogs pushed a lot of these dogs to the sidelines. Black smooth harder dogs combined with locator collars changed the landscape of working terriers. Some think it is for the better, others would disagree.
The Jack Russell terrier has always been around and is still worked today, as long as the Kennel club keep there hands off them they will be around for a long time doing what they were designed for. Working underground.
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It's like fight club your either in the know or your not!
LOL, that about sums it up.
First rule of the Cork white line......there is no Cork white line
Second rule......
there is no second rule.
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What qualities did the Tip dog add to a line that had English bull as well as fox terrier in the mix
Allymoore,
Just my opinion but I think "Northsider" has written that his line had become too close, he looked outside and was offered Tip to trial and breed from if it suited.
The qualities required that would show up at trial would be....Work, Work and bloody Work, whether he would produce had to be a gamble when bred into a different working line. I don't think that there were any genetic links to Tip. He produced and the rest is history. Tip is in the lines of only a small number of lines in Cork.
Some kennels prefer it this way.
Northside would be able to give a better answer I am sure.
Something similar happened when the odd White terrier from Wales (Breay and Barker), Ireland (Irving) and England (Fox terrier in the Lakey's) were bred into the terriers up in Fell Pack country, these men were not afraid to breed based on ability and performance.
They were not too worried about pedigree, coat type, colour etc.... they valued work.
They had no problem writing down that a white dog was used in their line, these men had character.
The white line has the same history, men not afraid to bring in a Park terrier if they thought it would work.
Compare that to today, where in some lines a sire is selected based on whether the coat is a certain shade!
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Few more pics
You are in great company in that last photo Kev. Excellent pics.
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R.I.P.
I enjoyed his books, he was clear that different types of workers could be useful to a hunt terrierman and not afraid to say it.
Another great loss to the terrier world.
Condolences to his family and friends.
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dogs have got much bigger than those in the pic
Do you mean all terriers or just Cork terriers?
The original Irish terriers ( the red show dog today) had 2 classes at the first shows in the 1870's
Under 7 lb and over 7 lb
Captain Edwards favourite "Sealyham" weighed 12 lb.
The Border terrier Fury weighd 12 lb in 1905
Terriers have definitely become bigger.
"Horses for courses" is an old saying that applies to terriers as well.
It depends on what the breeder needs.
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Did Tips line not go back to a dog from unknown breeding from the pound
TT,Is there glen of imaal in any of them?
This is just my opinion.
I'm sure if you go back through the lines from certain kennels you will find different types including a Glen and others.
There is Fell (A John Park bred dog called Fury), English Bull and Staff (Many times), White lakeland (it is claimed in the famous Tip)
Back in the 70's men will remember Pedigree Wire and Smooth Fox terriers that made their way into working kennels.
If they worked well they were kept, simple as that.
These are not pedigree dogs like some modern terriers.
Outcrossing to a working dog that may not have the same colour or coat type is not a mortal sin.
The men who kept these lines in the past when others jumped on the imported dog bandwagon are independent minded characters.
They care little for reputations or money. They are a breath of fresh air in the hunting world.
These Cork dogs are not special, they are workers and like all working lines they will have good dogs and failures.
It is how these failures are managed is what separated these men from others.
There were several dogs in that era that came from the pound.
Frank Lo...... dog Prince came from a pound through Lee in Dublin.
A great terrier who was still working at 10 years plus in 83. He appears in some lines.
At that time 1970 to 1980 in that area terriers were not generally line bred.
That came later for most.
Frank called it chance breeding and there were many dogs that did not produce even though there top class.
The reason that some lines or breedings gelled is a topic that has many opinions.
It was not all down to understanding genetics, a bit more complicated than that.
A concentration on a single dog (as in the case of Tommy Re...... Gripton bitch earlier or Norhsiders use of Tip later)
could have been what was needed. But that should not take from the dogs that were in kennels at the time.
It was not one white dog from Dublin or the UK that started this type, they were there already.
Tip is not in every line and some men think this OK.
The picture below shows Cork terriermen in the 50's.
The Cork white dogs would look like this today in some yards.
AND there is a solid coloured dog amongst them AND the sky did not fall.
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Is there glen of imaal in any of them?
TT,
This is just my opinion.
I'm sure if you go back through the lines from certain kennels you will find different types including a Glen and others.
There is Fell (A John Park bred dog called Fury), English Bull and Staff (Many times), White lakeland (it is claimed in the famous Tip)
Back in the 70's men will remember Pedigree Wire and Smooth Fox terriers that made their way into working kennels.
If they worked well they were kept, simple as that.
These are not pedigree dogs like some modern terriers.
Outcrossing to a working dog that may not have the same colour or coat type is not a mortal sin.
The men who kept these lines in the past when others jumped on the imported dog bandwagon are independent minded characters.
They care little for reputations or money. They are a breath of fresh air in the hunting world.
These Cork dogs are not special, they are workers and like all working lines they will have good dogs and failures.
It is how these failures are managed is what separated these men from others.
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Hes coming on well p3d his head is very like the fathers seen trump the other day shes a fine bitch..the bitch pup was 6 months yest..she the spit double of her ma..gona be big and strong.What they look like?
They look like old style russells, there is no set type. Smooth,Rough coated, Prick, drop ears, tall, short.
What they share IMO is a history of working to a high standard.
Kennels that keep a focus on work over looks.
If she works as well you will have a winner, stick up a photo if you want, A lot of good Cork white lines in the North now.
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the pup looks very relaxed enjoying the sun.. pd3 what line is it from?? Northsider maybe ??What they look like?
They look like old style russells, there is no set type. Smooth,Rough coated, Prick, drop ears, tall, short.
What they share IMO is a history of working to a high standard.
Kennels that keep a focus on work over looks.
Back a ways to Northsider and back to old John Br........ stuff.
Line recorded goes back to the 60's, the original stuff.
So credit goes to those men who kept faith in the dogs they had.
Relaxed and smart type of dogs in the kennel.
He needs to live up to all of that.
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- Popular Post
- Popular Post
What they look like?
They look like old style russells, there is no set type. Smooth,Rough coated, Prick, drop ears, tall, short.
What they share IMO is a history of working to a high standard.
Kennels that keep a focus on work over looks.
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Poster for the show show this year.
Should be another great day.
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If it suits them to do it that way, what harm.
Trials were held in the past in Ireland that were only slightly better for sounders.
5 minutes barking at quarry in a tunnel (Shore) for a certificate.
But they were a social occasion as well. Before the internet and mobile phones a way to meet up.
If there are people who are wiling to get out there ratting, trials, bushing it is all good IMO.
Maybe not what I want to do, but every man to his own poison.
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Some very good posts on this thread.
These are just a couple of personal thoughts,
I do not like the idea of kennels with lower half permanently sheeted, in effect the dogs can only see out the front OR get a view of the sky.
Definitely avoid blocks on the bottom half, soaks and stinks in a short time. Hard to wash down IMO.
I would prefer to have two separate panels between each kennel, about 250mm / 10 inches apart.
If your dogs do not get wound up with each other, happy days and the ventilation and view for the dogs across the kennels is open.
If you have a pair that get worked up by seeing each other, slide a galvanised sheet between the 10 inch gap between the kennels.
Blocking the dogs seeing each other.
Also allows the required 50mm/ 2 inch gap under the panels for hosing out.
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A book that tells of the hardship of life and the toughness of the people in the Lake district.
Great photo of Joe Wear with some of his terriers and stories about John Peel.
Details of fell hounds but more importantly the people who live there.
I enjoyed the story of the very young kids in pre-school drawing for a new teacher from the south of England.
She thought there was something wrong when she saw they were all colouring the sky as plain grey.
Where she came from the kids coloured it blue with a big yellow sun.
The head teacher gave her the heads up, not much sunny days up here.
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They were probably just white bodied working terriers as we're 90 per cent of all terriers then if you had a coloured terrier then you were known as a flash ba..ard
Too true,
When Ji Mu from Cork got one of the first Borders from the North in the late 70's.
I remember as a young lad my friends and I went and stared over his hedge at it.
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That type of dog, bred for that type of work has not changed much in nearly 50 years.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Blue Paul's were a mongrelised breed,
nothing hormoniginsed or alike ,
they were popular along the Galloway coast and Ayrshire at the turn of the 19th century and were in all likelihood an amalgamation of the native Scottish terriers in existence mongrelised with the influx of wheatens and Kerry blue types brought over from Ireland with the immigrants
They weren't a fighting breed or a game dog, just a typical farm cur terrier for ratting foxingvsndca bit of scrapping maybe in the side
As for the name, we'll like in the world of pattedales , names stick, like nuttall , Gould and Stevens to particular lines showing carried traits , hence the breeders nickname being affixed to the type
Blue Paul was an actual person
As for the dogs themselves, imagine a less thickset wheaten type with rough, smooths and wires , colours varying from champagne through to grizzle
They weren't blue
If i could be bothered , I'd pester my mam to go upstairs at hers and text me some of the pics of my grandads old dogs, but I can't
So I won't
In finality, blue Paul's aren't an archaic mysterious fighting breed, just a roustabout farm cur conglomerated from mixing terriers and probably sheep dogs
Nothing to get excited about
Good post, If you do get the chance would you put up those photos' of your grandads old dogs.
Just interested in the type. I never heard of that type before. You learn something new every day :-)
It would make you wonder why Mr. Breay would say that he brought bitches up to Northumberland to breed off them.
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Wheeler type picture from past and present
in Earthdogs & Working Terriers
Posted
Glyn,
Thank you for the reply, Then he may have known the breeding but decided or was asked to keep it to himself. Strange way to operate when he was writing out pedigrees to pass on with the pups BUT each to their own. As for the quote, The man could put the record straight about that in seconds. He has been interviewed multiple times since that quote was used. As I said in the previous post, it was not 100 years ago, the man is here now.
Thanks anyway, better let the post get back to talking about Wheeler dogs.