p3d
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Posts posted by p3d
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The Yellow Earl.
A good read of a period in english history when hunting and dogs were the norm.
5th Earl of Lonsdale, reputed to have his own strain of working terrier.
He kept a record of the breeding of his hounds and terriers.
A man who lived life to the full.
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Another thread ruined.
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"No breed of dog called a Husky" apart from the Siberian Husky or "Husky" for short?
Thanks for the heads up on the show p3d I watched it last night and really enjoyed it, I'd love to go on one of those wild bull hunts!
He had some control of the holding dogs, They were waiting on his command to take over once the herding dogs had moved the bull out.
All of it done off horseback using a radio. Never saw the likes of it before.
Would love to go on one of those hunts as well.
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And there I thought you were on about fella again.
Experienced the sled dogs up at the Artic Circle and pig dogs in Oz years back. They had the tufters kelpie X for scenting and heavy Luggers for holding. Some craic out in the outback at night trying to figure out what is looking back at you????
Nah, give the pedigrees a skip for now
The real sled dogs look nothing like huskies, rough looking harrier / collie crossbred types.
But they can travel great distances.
The real sled dogs ARE the huskies. Husky being an Inuit word for local village dog. There is no breed, as such, as a Husky.
What you meant are the Spitz and Malamutes etc.
They mustn't have explained this too well in the show.
Cooney the clown trying to get another post deleted.
Cooney being an inuit word for local village idiot
If you read my post I said "Huskies AND Sled dogs"
Sled dogs are worked by Canadians, Russians, Americans, etc...........not just the Inuit.
The show explained it very well.
Now go away and spoil another post.
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And there I thought you were on about fella again.
Experienced the sled dogs up at the Artic Circle and pig dogs in Oz years back. They had the tufters kelpie X for scenting and heavy Luggers for holding. Some craic out in the outback at night trying to figure out what is looking back at you????
Nah, give the pedigrees a skip for now
The real sled dogs look nothing like huskies, rough looking harrier / collie crossbred types.
But they can travel great distances.
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What channel and time is it on please mate?This series has started on Sky.
Episode 1 was an excellent example of working dogs around the word.
The guy in New Zealand hunting Wild Bulls in the forest is class. Has two types of dogs, herding and holding, fantastic control of both groups of dogs until he wants them to work.
Saluki running dogs and the breeders in that area of the world.
Huskies and sled dogs, fantastic tough dogs that are being studied for their stamina.
Worth a look IMO, hopefully more on hunting in episode 2
Sunday 7 o'clock on Discovery Channel.
First episode was different working dogs.
No doubt there will be episodes with stupid stuff like 5 star pet hotels etc...definitely fast forward those parts.
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This series has started on Sky.
Episode 1 was an excellent example of working dogs around the word.
The guy in New Zealand hunting Wild Bulls in the forest is class. Has two types of dogs, herding and holding, fantastic control of both groups of dogs until he wants them to work.
Saluki running dogs and the breeders in that area of the world.
Huskies and sled dogs, fantastic tough dogs that are being studied for their stamina.
Worth a look IMO, hopefully more on hunting in episode 2
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What are these then?
Top photo is a Pedigree Patterdale terrier?
Bottom photo is a Bull / Russell (Didn't Bert Gripton's terriers have that blue spotting in them?)
What is the breeding behind this dog, interested in hearing what people think.
P3d I reckon he's about a quarter bull at best buto from a line that's been kept tight for years lol
Spot on, any papers with him LOL
Fine looking dog, I had a half cross SBT years ago that had a head like that, he was a great terrier.
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What are these then?
Top photo is a Pedigree Patterdale terrier?
Bottom photo is a Bull / Russell (Didn't Bert Gripton's terriers have that blue spotting in them?)
What is the breeding behind this dog, interested in hearing what people think.
A guess would be staff bull x pat put back over same reverse bred .......long guess .Handsome chap anyway .
FD
That is similar to what I believe most dogmen would say.
If you saw this dog in the street and you had to guess,
i do not think any person who is interested in terriers would not see the attributes of a staff in the breeding.
That is just my opinion.
This dog is owned by a very good terrierman.
Here is another dog that would cause you to try and guess what is in his breeding. he is from the 1970's
Some of the older english lads might know more about this dog.
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What are these then?
Top photo is a Pedigree Patterdale terrier?
Bottom photo is a Bull / Russell (Didn't Bert Gripton's terriers have that blue spotting in them?)
What is the breeding behind this dog, interested in hearing what people think.
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I don't get the bull blood, why would you set yourself back by two or three generations, life's too short !
If from what the bull blood aficionados are saying, the first or second generations aren't much use, why would you put yourself through the wait ? Surely you'd be better off finding a working terrier with the style you're after.
DD
That is the question on every terriermens mind when they hear that Mr. Breay and others MAY have added Bull blood.
Quoting from "The Fell terrier" there was a well known terrierman who approached Mr. Breay at a show and asked him about Bull blood in his terriers. I believe the answer was there was none. (These men are still alive so the story can be verified regardless of the book source)
That terrierman went over and asked because no one had seen that type of dog before in the area.
Now most terriermen can see bull influence in a dog, terrier or running dog or even mongrel. It stands out like a sore thumb.
This man did not ask lightly, he and his friends believed that there was bull blood added.
And everyone would agree that the size would increase, so why would a man working in the Lake district need the attributes of a bull terrier?
I would like to be able to ask him. but that cannot happen.
So we can debate whether bull was added or not, into White terriers, Fell terriers, it is an interesting topic if you are interested in working terriers.
As the post said...Controversial...but interesting.
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go back another hundred years add another bit of bull...go back another hundred add another bit..both ways-probably years ago people werent as fuked in the head about breeding-if they worked-nice one-if they didnt cull and try again..could be pom blood in all our workers for all we know-does it matter at this stage?So we've come to the conclusion that Bull type dogs were added into the working Terrier mix and working Terriers were crossed with Bull type dogs back in the day, funny old game this dog one......
DogMan85,
Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way.
It is easy for some to accept that Bull blood was added "a hundred years ago" but not to accept that it was added 30 years ago.
It offends some terriermen to believe that "their line" has bull blood in it, even when its plain to see the bull influence in the dogs.
So a "Blue Poll" might be acceptable but a Staff or EBT is out of the question. What a load of cobblers.
IMHO it is not a bad mark against a working terrier strain if bull blood is evident, if that is what the breeder wants to do.
But some guys are afraid to admit it. (even some of the big names are prone to this)
you could point at a dog and ask the owner "how was the bull blood added to your terrier" to get the answer "there is no bull blood in my dog"
What has always held my interest was HOW a breeder did it.
Some breeders have the knowledge to breed in what they want from the bull type AND keep the size down.
That to me is what men like Breay and Nuttall did well. each had there own method but each was successful in what they wanted to do.
But that is just my opinion and there are many others.It matters to some, pedigree papers are what they have.
They have it, you don't..............and anything else is second best.
It starts off as a simple mistake or a bit of "harmless vanity" as one old timer put it.
Some breeder "mistypes" an entry in a pedigree, to avoid a bit of grief from other hunters.
Can't have lads saying their is "Bull" in his line !!!
It does not look like anything that terriermen have seen before.
They are experienced dogmen and they look at the strain and wonder "what is in it, that makes it look like that"
so they ask the breeder, "is there bull in that dog"...........the answer says it all.
and the lie gets bigger.............they even invent a name for it.
and the lie gets bigger.........now lads who never knew the original breeder will defend the lie.
It will be the downfall of any working dog IMO.
History repeats itself, one hundred years ago the White bodied Fox terrier was screwed because some A-hole decided he had a pedigree line.
After that he could not breed from a great black/tan working dog......it did not look like his dogs.
But each to their own....and it makes THL great craic.
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So we've come to the conclusion that Bull type dogs were added into the working Terrier mix and working Terriers were crossed with Bull type dogs back in the day, funny old game this dog one......
DogMan85,
Unfortunately not everyone sees it that way.
It is easy for some to accept that Bull blood was added "a hundred years ago" but not to accept that it was added 30 years ago.
It offends some terriermen to believe that "their line" has bull blood in it, even when its plain to see the bull influence in the dogs.
So a "Blue Poll" might be acceptable but a Staff or EBT is out of the question. What a load of cobblers.
IMHO it is not a bad mark against a working terrier strain if bull blood is evident, if that is what the breeder wants to do.
But some guys are afraid to admit it. (even some of the big names are prone to this)
you could point at a dog and ask the owner "how was the bull blood added to your terrier" to get the answer "there is no bull blood in my dog"
What has always held my interest was HOW a breeder did it.
Some breeders have the knowledge to breed in what they want from the bull type AND keep the size down.
That to me is what men like Breay and Nuttall did well. each had there own method but each was successful in what they wanted to do.
But that is just my opinion and there are many others.
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Sounds like a great weekend. Nice permission in the pics.
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Good post eastcoast.
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Lislea Vixen is Janine Dooner and she has never worked her terriers they are a show Kennel pure and simple.
Nita, Are there Parsons working in Ireland. I have not heard of a line but would like to know.
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So its fair to say that they are not Patterdale terriers?
That question is from me to the lads with the knowledge, no one else involved.
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I got a better one, lets stick your name, occupation, an ask about where you live and any other bollocks we feel need to be nosey about, or how about you just man up, say what you want to say, to who you want to say it to, without using somebody elses name as an excuse to say it. Anyybody with more than a few brain cells can see your nowt but a spineless mixer.Could we get back to talking about Mr. John Winch.
He sounds like a proper gent with knowledge of Terriers going back to the 50's.
What a book he could write.
So lets have your name an job to start with??
John Winch and his occupation, his friendship with Plummer and the history of the Fell terrier was quoted in an article in CMW.
I said "who was this guy" to be saying that the "Patterdale Terrrier name" for the black dogs was a load of BS invented in the 70's.
Most knew it was a way of asking tongue in cheek because it is a controversial topic (all topics seem to be when it comes to breeding lines)
The statement was more powerful coming from a man like that because he was part of that history.
The usual argument that "You do not own a Black dog" or "you do not live in the Lake District" could not be used here.
I am guessing that most could see that it was a question to the type of breeders who say that the Patterdale is a dog line bred from the fell terriers of Buck/Breay.
This type of breeder would not breed a Red Fell type over a Smooth black bitch because they would loose the pedigree.(It did not seem to bother Buck/Breay)
If a person does not call them "Patterdale Terriers" or write pedigrees then the question was not aimed at them.
This an ongoing discussion among terriermen regarding the history of all terriers.
What went into them, how were they bred, I have one view, other people have another view.
I have no problem dsicussing any line of dogs, Black, Fell, White they all are interesting to me.
I am guessing that you could own a Patterdale by your response.
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Could we get back to talking about Mr. John Winch.
He sounds like a proper gent with knowledge of Terriers going back to the 50's.
What a book he could write.
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THL will be up for "Best Comedy" in next years golden globes...... a bloody playground?
Maybe we should just start the THL version of the Darwin Awards "Golden Ball" goes to the biggest knob.
No wonder people don't bother posting half the time as the same ole trolling experts will be on.
??????
Back to my real life.
For someone who once said that you'd like to see this web-site banned you sure look at it a lot.
What you and your type have problem with forums like this compared to face book etc. is that when one comes on to an open forum you have to be prepared to put your money where your mouth is and be prepared for others opinions.
You and P3D now and again come on and like to ridicule the breeding of the black lines of terriers. You's nit pick and scrutinize quotes etc. to try and say they just another scatter bred mongeral the same as some other hotch potch types.
It kills you's that there actually are lads who have something to show for their years of hard work.
I don't pretend to be any sort of an expert or the only one who knows black terriers but I am very passionate about something that IMO is worth being passionate about.
Some day you might know how it feels.
That's why I always rise up and take the bait because f****d if I'll let someone with a half arsed opinion make stupid statements.
John Winch said that it was vanity that named the Pedigree Patterdale.
How right he was.
Reading your post says it all.
Every other strain is hodge podge EXCEPT your well bred type.
Listen to men like Mr Winch and stop making stupid statements.
There are a lot of great working strains that genuine men have bred for decades.
Because they do not have pedigree papers that does not mean they are bad workers.
I wont make much comment as you've put words in my mouth.
I rarely use the word Patterdale and don't call them pedigree terriers.
And I never said ALL OTHER types are mish mash.
Can't put words in your mouth, its too full already.
You have a biased view of the world, no problem if that's how you wish to live but don't force it on other people.
Remember
A narrow mind and a fat head invariably come on the same person
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THL will be up for "Best Comedy" in next years golden globes...... a bloody playground?
Maybe we should just start the THL version of the Darwin Awards "Golden Ball" goes to the biggest knob.
No wonder people don't bother posting half the time as the same ole trolling experts will be on.
??????
Back to my real life.
For someone who once said that you'd like to see this web-site banned you sure look at it a lot.
What you and your type have problem with forums like this compared to face book etc. is that when one comes on to an open forum you have to be prepared to put your money where your mouth is and be prepared for others opinions.
You and P3D now and again come on and like to ridicule the breeding of the black lines of terriers. You's nit pick and scrutinize quotes etc. to try and say they just another scatter bred mongeral the same as some other hotch potch types.
It kills you's that there actually are lads who have something to show for their years of hard work.
I don't pretend to be any sort of an expert or the only one who knows black terriers but I am very passionate about something that IMO is worth being passionate about.
Some day you might know how it feels.
That's why I always rise up and take the bait because f****d if I'll let someone with a half arsed opinion make stupid statements.
John Winch said that it was vanity that named the Pedigree Patterdale.
How right he was.
Reading your post says it all.
Every other strain is hodge podge EXCEPT your well bred type.
Listen to men like Mr Winch and stop making stupid statements.
There are a lot of great working strains that genuine men have bred for decades.
Because they do not have pedigree papers that does not mean they are bad workers.
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Are you putting the Russells above the Black dogs with such a comment P3D? Surely not!
No Way. Good and bad in both.
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Rabbit hunter,Netmaker, Eastcoast,
Ye are starting to worry a few lads now, are ye saying that this man is very knowledgeable about the terriers of the North.
That he is in his later years and has lived up where these dogs originated all his life.
That he has hunted, bred and showed working terriers since his youth.
That he is a Barrister so no slouch in the brains department.
AND he thinks that the "Patterdale Terrier" name being used for the smooth black dogs is just some men's vanity made up in 1970.
JA$U$ lads, that serious. WHAT are we going to call them now?
loads of them are just black jack russels.
Often wondered if there is a connection, Bottle of black dye and most Old School Russells' would pass as a pedigree Patterdale.
BUT no Russell would pass as a Fell terrier IMO.
Different structure.
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Of course the big fly in the ointment in Lucas's book from 1931
I would guess he read the book, I bet he could write a better one.
Certain Books Of Interest.
in Earthdogs & Working Terriers
Posted
FF,
The story of this mans life you really could not make up.
His older brother was schooled to inherit and become the wealthiest man in Britain.
Hugh Lonsdale never remembers a time when he was not in the saddle, he dodged school and went out on his fathers estate, riding, shooting, hunting and living a will life.
A mans life. he loved fighting (Boxing), the Lonsdale belt was named after him.
His father totally ignored him and he grew to love the 70,000 acres around his home. He loved horses, working dogs of every type.
Sold his title and went to America.
His brother died and he returned to take over the fortune at a very young age.
Spent the rest of his life blowing all of the money on what he loved.
If a terrierman had a dream and won the biggest lottery, you could live the life like this man.
What a life