p3d
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Posts posted by p3d
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Any way !!!! ,If a black dog sits 12inches off his fox just baying is he a patterdales or a black Russel .
Most lads now keep themselves to themselves shunning the summer show get togethers the dog game is the most bitchiest back stabbing game a lad could get into,perhaps it's just not the dogs that should look into the qualities of their ancestors, IMO if the dog is 12 inches off the quarry he is not trying to dominate.
IMO if the dog is 12 inches off the quarry then it is showing too much respect and not trying to dominate.
Patterdale or Russell it is just not good.
If you were digging in France then the quarry would dig on and put a wall of earth up in front of the dog.
When you break in the dog is siting on its own in the tube, not really a good sign in anyones eyes.
If digging here and the terrier is not trying to get to grips with a Fox, something wrong in my mind anyway.
It does not mean that the terrier takes hold regardless. They should have an inherent knack to kill the prey without getting needlessly injured.
I saw a video of two lions with an african honey badger on the TV, Both lions were trying to get a grip and kill the badger.
Every time they tried to get a grip the lions ducked the strike the badger made and went around for a different grip.
Now these were lions that must have been 10 times the size of the badger, there heads were nearly bigger than the badgers body.
BUT they were smart about going about killing it, No one could doubt their courage, they were just smart.
No doubt the badger was killed, it just was done in a way that minimised cuts to the lions that could get infected and kill the predator.
If a wild animal like a lion can use its brain surely a terrier can use its head as well.
And you are right about the terrier game, we should write our posts and mails as though the ANTI's are reading them.
Protecting terrierwork should be on our mind at all times. NOT EASY . but we should try.
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A young dog from the Cork white strain that is a bayer/mixer, from great working parents.
Started this season, 3 digs so far 0.6,1.4,1.1 and came away with minimal care needed.
Early days but could be a useful dog, has a brain and is using it.
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lol i told you something would be made up and there it is you can read you like the rubbish you write in books... ok who was i supposedly trying to buy black pups of last year then walter mitty? Tell me! The man from the north who you got yours off only got into terriers when the men who i dig with took him out he was in his 20s ffs.. hes 50 now if even lol... if any of you watched the wheaten programme on tg4 big terry is on it speaking about wheatens.. i had my first dig with him my father and cousin at 9 years of age..i had my last dig with him 4 weeks ago.. so who am i supposed to have tried to buy a patterdale off chunk??Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?
LOL, every part of that post is either a lie or an untruth.
Daniel is right ,lets not ruin a good thread where Glyn is giving the truth on working lines that he's learned from experience and P3D has learned from books.
I'll leave it at that as it's the season of good will.
LOL, Chunk, good one, LOL. Say that to my face next time we meet.
To all those true working terriermen, good wishes to you and your loved ones.
Neil,
You don't know me, we only met for a short time
But I know about you from what happened at the beginning of the I.W.T.F.
When the pressure came on and terrierwork needed men to stand shoulder to shoulder, we turned around and you were gone.
You choose sides with your NARGC and Mounted hunt buddies. It was the best thing that happened to be honest.
Could not stick another minute in your company, we were glad to be rid of you.
The darkest place in our memories is reserved for the people who bolted when the fight started.
Not the time or place here. The truth will come out in time. (Remember we kept all the emails).
Have a great Christmas to everyone.
P3D
PS. sorry lads for diverting from the post, only so much a person can take.
Back to topic.
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Is the cork dog The short broken coated type? I saw a few at moate this summer, anyone off here?
ro284,
The Cork white line is a strain of Working Russell, hard to describe the type.
Everything from strong Bull/russell smooths to Small wire haired terriers. Not a breed more a strain of workers.
In general these are rough looking dogs, even at Moate its hard to see these dogs excel in the show ring.
Even at a working dog day they do not generally show well.
You have to see them work to appreciate the quality.
Prick ears, one or both, Rose ears, drop ears like a fox terrier, tall, short, they come in all shapes and sizes.
The white terriers in Ireland have been hunted for centuries just like in the UK.
Long before the Reverend Russell or Captain Edwardes got names for themselves there were terriermen hunting with terriers underground.
The reason that Cork became strong in white terriers IMO is that there is a large number of quality kennels in this area.
By quality kennels I mean kennels where the standard is set very high for the dogs. Tested to the limit.
Cork and Munster (the county in Ireland where Cork is the Capital
) has the highest number of Harrier packs.Hunting has always been a strong tradition in this area. There are plenty of guys on here with quality White terriers of this strain.
Right now there are kennels up in the North which are having good success with this line as well.
The reason that the Cork area did not get consumed by the Black terrier craze, just my opinion but they had
good terriers at the time, if its not broken don't try to fix it.
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p3d i did ask him years ago, and in a round about way i was told breeding unknown , right up until the 70's from what i could gather there where a few lines of pure/ pure-ish un-reg (non-kc)border lines around more so 40-50's the type described by Lucus in his book a lot of this blood was folded in to the blacks because although as good a worker as the fells these border terrier where just more laid back both with other dogs and people , but the gene pools had become to limited to stay pure and with a huge gap already developed between working and show borders much of the working blood was mixed in to the new workers on the block
Brian's early stuff was a mishmash of working blood it wasn't until he got a bitch from RW and then made use of Breay/Buck blood line he started on his line breeding , so if you like by the time Penny and Punch came along they would be 3/4 Breay/Buck the rest bits of border bits of pits and whites, i haven't chatted with him for 15 years but he spent hours at my house at one time us chatting terriers and his little grandson playing with my transformers i didn't have the heart to take them off him (my lads and out grown them )so he left with them
and i was left with sheets of photo copied photo's and a 4 hour taped interview Glyn...
Great post, thats the type of history the strain needs, up close and personal.
Hats off to you.
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Here is an image of one of Mr Nuttal's Patterdale terriers "Judy" from 1975.
This is her pedigree.
Its just clear enough to make out Breays dogs, a few Borders, and .......
Save the image and zoom in on your computer. Maybe some of the lads who work black dogs can add other pedigrees from that era and shed light on the breeding of these great little dogs.
these are her parents
Glyn....
Great photo. do you know who were the Border Dog* on Top and Bottom and Border Bitch in the bottom half of the pedigree?
Unusual that the Border Dog* pedigree is unknown, you would think that the Borders would be the easiest to trace.
This in a pedigree would normally indicate that
1; The dog was from parents that were not known (then it was a total outcross, chance bred) OR
2; The dog was from parents that the Breeder Did NOT want to know (champion show dogs in the pedigree, still an outcross.
Just makes you wonder at the "Pure Patterdale Brigade" and how much they know of their own strain.
This would all be just a mystery, BUT Mr Nuttall is still alive, we can get answers.......if we want to.
These are great working terriers and their history should be clarified.
Learning from the likes of Breay,Park and Nuptial's of their day can only help us to continue the work they started.
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A lot of talk disagreement about game,hard or baying terriers which is only normal.But what about origin keeping faith with the style a lot of lines strains or even breeds were bred to work in,magority of lads would expect a Russel to be a Bayer some pushier than others but is an out and out baying patterdale,lakeland or even border terrier a good example of its breed? .The law has changed life in general is very different but do we lay down hundreds of years of tradition to please the law ?.Do we reject the men that put so much time and effort into producing those breeds of game hard terriers .
Downview,
Not sure if there is a working origin of a hard terrier, if hard terrier means it has to be laid up for a couple of weeks after being dug.
The definition of "hard" is used differently by everyone. Some people call it "Stupid" "Silent" "Crocodile"
But in general for me it means a terrier that closes with the quarry and engages regardless of the outcome to itself.
Before the arrival of the locator collar, a hard terrier would have a very short career.
If we use the name Russell because we credit the Reverend Russell with a standard of working terriers that HE wanted for hunting with foxhound packs, then a bayer should not prevent the Fox from running once dug. Also IMO any professional hunt terrierman wants a terrier that he can use 3 times during the week and twice on Sunday. A "hard' terrier must be useless to this man.
But there have been some very hard Russell type terriers.
Its a bit of a delusion that the terriers of the Lake District were all Hard.
It is well documented that multiple terriers (4 / 5 at times) were used by Bowman and Wear to worry the fox underground.
Again to be fair to these men, this was their job, they were not Sunday sportsmen, they were out to account for the Fox.
A lot of places they could not dig out the Fox.
Never really understood how they did not loose terriers in fights underground or the advantage of the 3rd 4th or 5th terrier.
If the first 2 terriers are up to the Fox, then the others must be behind them, not a good position for a fiery terrier!!
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Here is an image of one of Mr Nuttal's Patterdale terriers "Judy" from 1975.
This is her pedigree.
Its just clear enough to make out Breays dogs, a few Borders, and .......
Save the image and zoom in on your computer. Maybe some of the lads who work black dogs can add other pedigrees from that era and shed light on the breeding of these great little dogs.
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nuttals in his eightees .he got his off his father in law from going out with him from a child .he bred the own and took a mating off buck breay .they been dead nearly forty years .so wouldn't say the was modern man and dog . what's in your white dogs
Have those tight shorts made you a bit argumentative mate ,doesn't suit you .Is the reason you're not into black terriers because the lads you wanted to buy pups off last year wouldn't sell them to you ?
Stop end. You are more than welcome to any pup or breeding that I have access too now and in the future! Should you want it.
All that we ask down this way is to rear them right, work them right and don't "ever" sell them . All of which you fully understand!
As like anyone else I move in various circles......some of these circles remain the same, some overlap and some change over the years, but one thing is constant - the working white dogs.
Of course the Cork standards may not be up to the dizzy heights of others, but they do plenty of us just fine down this way and some up your way too!
So I wouldn't be too bothered about buying black dogs.
I would think that many a man has bought or tried to buy a dog. No shame in that. One of the best I ever had I bought for £50 old Irish pounds and it was the best money I ever spent. But unfortunately there is plenty of sh*te out there too with a hefty price tag on them? Some beggars belief.
AND You are correct. The so called Patterdale Terrier (Black smooth coated bully head - Nuttal Type) has not that long a history. Nothing wrong with that! Many of them work and work well. Everyone including Nuttal got his dogs from someone else and made them their own as are many of the men today. Of course all Fell type dogs can be traced back to the Lake District and probably the Wolf. The past is nice to know, but the hear and now in my lifetime is what I am only interested in as these are the dogs "we" all work today and strive at a minimum to keep up to the standards of our predecessors.
So Happy Christmas to all and Happy Hunting
Pablo,
Here are photographs of Mr Nuttall with his dogs during his life, as you say over the last
years.
Brian with his son Craig - Brian looks to be in his thirties in this photo.
The dogs look to be tan or red coloured, nearly smooth coated terriers
Brian with his terriers, Brian looks to be in his late forty's / fifty maybe. Terriers are black fell types, rough coated?.
Brian with his Black smooth terriers (Patterdales??) Brian in his seventies.
That is some change of terrier type in 40 years, The kennel club would get away with classing these three types as separate breeds!!
Here are Breays terriers in 1966
Close enough to what Brian had in his thirties in the photo above, around 1966 if he is in his 80's now.
This is John Park as a young man ( guessing he is in his thirties, again around 1966 if Mr Park is in his 80's as well)
These terriers seem the same type, nearly smooth coated (slape coated) red / brown in colour.
Photographs don't lie and it is easy to work back through the last
years to see the development of the smooth black dogs.What is missing is the introduction of the smooth black coat, who knows what was introduced to get that??
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Adam,
I will take one, pm me with the payment details.
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Jesus hearing all this i think il b keepin photos in the album
Best place for them IMO, I posted photos of terriers in the past ........but no more from the hunting field.
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Oh first thing I do on any camera is switch off geo or location
Leethedog,
There is data embedded in every digital photograph, the safest way I believe protecting your privacy posting images is to capture them from a computer screen.
On a Mac computer go into utilities and open "Grab it", put a box around the picture and save it as a JPEG image.
On a PC there is free software out there on the internet. "Snip It" is one package, it works the same way, capture the image on the screen and save as a JPEG.
These saved images will then contain no data that anyone could use against you.
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R.I.P. condolences to his family.
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IMO I would bring the dog to a place heaving with game, travel further out into the countryside and you will find good spots.
For a very young pup following an older dog into cover is the easiest method I have found.
Don't agree with throwing stones or balls into cover, the dog will just start watching and waiting for you to continue doing it.
It will probably distract them more than anything.
It is a problem with some strains and is worth watching, nothing worse than a hunting dog walking at your side in the countryside which is full of scent.
Natural prey drive should get it running ahead and searching. There will be stories of great terriers that were not good at bushing BUT
a terrier should not be able to stop themselves chasing things, its in their DNA.
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RIP Tosh, great to remember and respect men like him.
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Albert,
Not trying to hijack your post and I have only respect for the work you and your committee do for hunting.
But the thought of the ISPCA around field sports does raise some concerns in my mind.
Definitely cannot please all of the people all of the time
ATB
P3D
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Like all charity organisations the ISPCA is driven by money.
In that respect they will try to be all things to all people.....as long as you hand over your cash.
The dangerous aspect is that the people at the top table are Anti-hunting.
Having met a few of them in the past they are very extreme in their views on field sports and their policy confirms that.
As usual some of the men and women in the front line of the ISPCA are probably genuine in their respect for animals.
It might be a good idea to make contact with the front line people and show them a new side of hunting folk.
The game fairs is a great place to do just that in my opinion.
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The Irish Game Fair committee is very supportive of all country sports and in particular have shown outstanding support for working terriers.
Contrary to what was posted earlier about the terrier ring location away from the main ring, the I.W.T.F have had a stand down in the Pavilion area for the last 4 years. For the last 2 years it was the federations choice to move the stand nearer to the terrier ring on Sunday.
This prime location was provided by the Game fair committee and behind the scene support was given to working terriers and lurchers that would put a lot of more established hunting organisations to shame.
Instead of criticising a game fair that successfully showcases field sports it might be more helpful to congratulate them for the work they do.
The ISPCA are an organisation that campaigns aggressively against all forms of hunting and I have little respect for them.
But it is the show organisers choice of who they invite onto their field.
Perhaps the Game fair committee is showing a progressive approach to educate these people and maybe change their stance on hunting.
JMO
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A great cause, good luck with the show.
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Hard times, tough people, genuine people.
That's a nice bit of history and they valued their sport and their animals.
Thanks for putting that up.
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I suppose it was a better way for terriermen to meet up rather than stand around a show ring lol.
It depends on the show, if you pick the right working dog show you can meet likeminded people.
That is as much as you can expect
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A Razors Edge
in Earthdogs & Working Terriers
Posted
Glyn.
I agree, it would be interesting to get the full story. A lot of questions could be answered.
If Mr Nuttall's written pedigree for Judy in 1975 is taken back through Mr Breay's line to 1920 then its hard to see where his Grandfathers Fell x Bull came in.
Buck / Breay did line breed the Dog's sire / Dams Grandsire,
but they kept going out to Hunt kennels for stud dogs.
Coniston, East Kent, Bedale, Ulleswater, Cockermouth etc....
Up to the 1960's there is every type of terrier in the mix.
White, Fell, Border, Brindle, and all of these crosses.
It is BN who appears to have started the line breeding of Breay's dogs into his own kennel, if the pedigree is accurate.
More lads may have details to fill in the blanks for the B.N. dogs.
See attached pdf
Judy Pedigree 1975 to 1920.pdf