feeding the lurchers

[sandymere 8,261]

the cooking process kills protein in meats and thus kills the creatine which is the main building block in the body usefd to repair damaged tissue and grow muscle ..... boiling veg kills all the vitamins and nutrients and renders them useless ....... carbs are not the main source of energy in dogs fats are .........

 

it's simple realy the dogs utilise food via gluconeogenisis ie turning it into suger to be burned in the muscles as fuel. creatine is only needed in tiny amounts easily available in a balenced cooked diet (weight lifters use creatine, steroids and other maybe harmful supplyments etc to build muscle but they don't run that fast).

personally i don't think it makes much difference if you cook meat or feed raw it's quality that counts and again a balenced diet!

 

 

to quote rainmakers reply "To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).

 

it's very interesting but again you don't see top athletes eating what our ancesters ate so should we expect our canine athletes to do so?

 

atkins diets for all?

[socks 32,253]

the more creatine the quicker it will repair muscle and help it grow and thus getting a stronger dog taht can run further and harder thus becoming fitter and able to work longer thats why greyhound trainers add it as a suplement to the dogs diet .... FACT cooking any food kills most of its nutrients and viamins and kills ALL the creatine.... as for muscular guys taht cant run fast ... you better tell that to all the olympic sprinters cos them boys aint small .............

[Guest MOLLY]

Socks you're right about the cooking process being bad, more power to ya... only one thing to mention...

 

Wild dogs = wolves. The wolf is Canis lupis, and the dog is Canis lupis familiaris.... Wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of prey in the wild. Period.

 

Another nice little myth for all those sites selling "Barf" (vomit shit) made of mashed up veggies. Check out some of the world authorities on wolves and you'll clearly see over and over they say having watched many thousands of wolf kills they NEVER eat the stomach contents.

 

Meat, bones, hide, hair and sinew only (oh and organs, brains... but no veggies!).

 

Yours,

 

Lee

 

Here's some references to scientific treatise, papers etc I mentioned.

 

Mech, one of THE world experts in wolf ecology and behaviour, wrote in his 2003 book "Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation":

 

"Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added)

 

"To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added).

 

There's loads more out there if you look

 

Lee

A guy just now on telly has been living with a pack of wolves, he stated your position in the pack had alot to do with what you eat, the dominant eat heart, lung and kidneys, the rest eat vegetable matter and meat. So although its the less dominat dogs who eat the veg matter it does prove they do eat it perhaps?

MOLL.

[Kye 77]

I dont know a lot about Wovles, but Coyotes (which can breed with both wolves and dogs) they eat the guts, and veggie/greens inside of prey animals...at least the kills we have found have been!..

Also when we have hunted elk, and gutted them, we have hunted Coyotes of the pile of guts etc...we have found that coyotes love eating the soft entrails and such...i know there not Wolves, as in Timber Wolves etc, but Coyotes are realy just a smaller type of Wolf. simple as that..

Kye,..

[sandymere 8,261]

the more creatine the quicker it will repair muscle and help it grow and thus getting a stronger dog taht can run further and harder thus becoming fitter and able to work longer thats why greyhound trainers add it as a suplement to the dogs diet .... FACT cooking any food kills most of its nutrients and viamins and kills ALL the creatine.... as for muscular guys taht cant run fast ... you better tell that to all the olympic sprinters cos them boys aint small .............

sorry but many see creatine as some wonder muscle building drug but creatine (c.phosphate) acts as a store of high energy phosphate in muscles, the body excretes exess creatine putting extra workload on their system as it has to be filtered fron the system and excreted in the urine. a balenced, cooked meat or raw, diet will give all the basic building blocks (amino acids) for muscle repair as well as enough creatine for maintenance of ATP levels.

sorry but this is getting a little heavy so will simplify next bit as much as poss.

as allready stated protein and fat are used as an energy source by turning them into suger this process results in acid waste products(keytones) also sprinting utilises a form of energy burning (anaerobic respiration) that creates acid waste(lactic acid) so if you wish to maximise your dogs ability to keep going then training to maximse their lactic threshold might be better than worrying about creatine.(happy to explain this training if wished).

 

#go to a foxhound kennels and see extremely fit healthy dogs fed a balenced cooked diet.

[socks 32,253]

sandy you talking crap CREATINE IS WHAT BUILDS AND REPAIRS MUSCLE FACT ..........

[dodger 2,664]

never used creatine on the dogs but it does wonders for me

[Stabs 2]

never used creatine on the dogs but it does wonders for me

 

 

Gives me the shits

[sandymere 8,261]

sandy you talking crap CREATINE IS WHAT BUILDS AND REPAIRS MUSCLE FACT ..........

 

amino acid n. organic compound that contains an amino group (-NH2) and a carboxyl group (-COOH). amino acids are basic building blocks of every protein, the body is able to make some but others (essential amino acids) must be got from the protein in the diet.

 

creatinen. a product of protein metabolism found in muscle. c phosphate (phosphocreatine. phosphagen) phosphate of creatine acts as a store of high energy phosphate in muscle and maintains adequate levels of ATP.

 

ATP (adenosine triphosphate).n. a compound that contains adenine, ribose, and three phosphate groups and occurs in the cells. the chemical bonds of phosphate groups release their energy when split into ADP or AMP. ATP is formed using energy from the breakdown of carbohydrate etc.

 

 

so mr socks tell me i hold the egg how? and start to suck?

 

raising yor dogs lactat thresthold and vo2 max will give real results unlike uneccessary suppliments! also there fast and slow twitch muscle fibres but thats for another day.

 

a chalk tablet will make a patient feel better (placebo effect) it would seem that it also makes people think their dogs are better (could call it placebo by proxy).

[socks 32,253]

we can all play the google .... here you go .........

 

Creatine is, and always has been, a natural component of skeletal muscle. The only reason that creatine may seem like something new is a recent boom in scientific research in the area since the early 1990s. In a sense, creatine was rediscovered when world-class athletes became wise to the option of utilizing it to enhance their physical performance.

 

In truth, however, creatine was identified as an indispensable part of skeletal muscle some time ago. Nearly two centuries ago (1835) a French scientist and philosopher named Michel-Eugène Chevreul isolated a component from skeletal muscle that he gave the name Creatine after the Greek word for flesh, or Kreas. A few years later (1847) a German scientist named Justus von Liebig proposed that creatine is necessary to support muscular activity when he observed that wild (active) foxes contain more intramuscular creatine than foxes kept in captivity. Liebig later went as far as lending his name to a commercial extract of meat that he asserted would help the body perform extra "work". Indeed, Liebig's "Fleisch Extrakt " could reasonably be considered the original creatine supplement - complete with marketing strategy.

 

In fact, meat and fish are the richest natural sources of creatine. Carnivores therefore, receive their creatine directly via dietary channels. Conversely, herbivores (and strict vegetarians), since they abstain from consuming these sources of creatine, are solely reliant on their body's natural ability to synthesis creatine from basic components. Omnivores, on the other hand, have at their disposal both avenues from which to fulfill their daily creatine requirement.

 

When dietary creatine intake is restricted (or entirely absent) the body can produce creatine from amino acids made available during the digestion of foods (see Question #3). Therefore, in one way or another, creatine is acquired from our diets. The production of new creatine (synthesis) principally takes place in the liver and kidneys, although the pancreas also contributes some to the body's new synthesis of creatine. Creatine is produced in a chemical reaction involving three amino acids, arginine, glycine and methionine. Of these three, the requirement for dietary methionine is most critical, since the body does not readily produce it from starting materials (see Question #3).

 

Although creatine is present in most cell types to varying degrees, the greater part of the body's entire creatine reserve (95%) is found within skeletal muscle. The remainder (~5%) is principally found within the heart, brain and testes. These are all tissues with extremely high energy expenditures. Following ingestion (or synthesis) creatine is transported to our muscles (see Question #4) where it serves to increase muscle energy levels. Creatine achieves this by increasing the availability of ATP, the cell's energy molecule (see Question #2). The chemical reaction that produces creatine in the liver, kidneys and pancreas can be viewed here.

 

To become physiologically active creatine must first be enzymatically transformed into another molecule known as phosphocreatine (PCr). PCr is nothing more than a molecule of creatine that has been modified with the covalent attachment of a phosphate group. On average the body goes through about 2 grams of creatine (creatine and PCr) each day through a process of spontaneous degradation. This entails the spontaneous conversion of creatine and PCr into an energetically inert molecule known as creatinine. We typically notice an improvement in exercise performance when our muscle creatine levels increase by at least 20% as a result of creatine supplementation (see Question #6).

 

NOW MR EXPERT LETS SEE SOME PICS OF YOUR DOGS FED ON YOUR DIET AND I WILL SHOW SOME OF MINE FED ON NATURAL RAW FOOD ..........

[socks 32,253]

oh and here is another piece of information from google search ..........

 

Is Creatine found in normal foods?

 

Yes. Creatine is found naturally in foods. For example, the average helping of beef or fish contains about 1 gram of naturally occurring Creatine. Unfortunately, Creatine is very sensitive to heat and cooking virtually destroys the effectiveness of Creatine.

[Cupid Stunt 18]

oh and here is another piece of information from google search ..........

 

Is Creatine found in normal foods?

 

Yes. Creatine is found naturally in foods. For example, the average helping of beef or fish contains about 1 gram of naturally occurring Creatine. Unfortunately, Creatine is very sensitive to heat and cooking virtually destroys the effectiveness of Creatine.

 

 

I'm fairly sure rabbit meat contains the highest, around 3 grams per pound.

[socks 32,253]

oh and another one .........

 

Bob Fritz

Animal Performance Research Labs

 

What does this popular performance supplement have to do with feeding your dog a natural diet? More than you might think......

 

Look inside pro training rooms, talk to serious athletes, read sports science journals and you'll see Creatine (cree'-ah--tun) being discussed. And with the trickle down effect, performance dog fanciers are asking questions as to whether this supplement might improve their performance.

 

In dozens of well-controlled scientific and medical studies, Creatine has been shown to fuel muscle energy, boost power performance and enhance recovery. Creatine has a strong safety record as well.

 

I feel qualified to speak about Creatine and dogs. I helped formulate and introduce the first commercial Creatine products for athletes for UNIPRO 15 years ago. I also began testing Creatine supplements on dogs at about the same time.

 

 

What is Creatine?

First, what Creatine is not. Creatine is not a kooky California fad, or the latest health nut potion. Just the opposite, Creatine is a scientifically validated food supplement. Moreover, Creatine is a more than a supplement; it is actually a lost nutrient from the wild food chain of wolves and wild dogs.

 

Creatine is a natural element of the wild food chain. Creatine is stored mainly in muscle and in nerve tissues in both humans and dogs.

 

The canine body obtains Creatine in two ways. First, after eating protein, the dog’s body links two amino acids to form Creatine. In this way, the canine body makes its own Creatine. The second way dogs obtain Creatine is from the protein foods they eat. Creatine is naturally occurring in the canine diet in meats. After eating meat, some of the Creatine is absorbed.

So the dog obtains Creatine two ways. First, the body makes some of its own. Second, Creatine is extracted from the meat dogs eat.

 

 

The First Clue

In 1832, French researchers noted muscle tissue from wild foxes contained about ten times the Creatine as the same tissue of caged foxes. Since it appeared both fox groups received approximately the same diet, it was concluded physical activity accumulated Creatine in muscle tissue. In other words, wild animals, because they're forced to move for survival, store more Creatine than sedentary animals.

 

 

Wild vs. Supermarket Meats

Other researchers examining the relationship between domestic and wild animals within the same species have noted striking differences in lipid content and profile depending on whether the animals are fed wild or domestic diets. This difference within the same species, influenced solely by diet, suggests that there are significant but subtle differences in wild and domestic meats.

 

One of the most important differences in wild and domestic meats appears to be Creatine content. Although more research remains to be conducted, it can be said that all meat is not the same. Clearly, meat is much more than a mere vehicle for dietary protein.

 

Based on studies by Mesch and other researchers, it appears that wild dogs can "wolf" up to several kilos of fresh wild meat at a sitting. Since muscle tissue is the primary repository of Creatine, it can be reasonably said that wolves consume relatively large amounts of Creatine when lucky enough to make a kill, or scavenge. Based on French research, this wild meat may contain more Creatine than domestic meats. At any rate, dogs enjoy meat and will eat large amounts at almost any opportunity. With every bite of meat they take, Mother Nature makes sure they get Creatine, too.

 

It can also be said that dogs are evolutionary-designed to consume not just meat, but also the Creatine within the meat as part of Nature's wisdom. Interestingly, the first major Creatine study in America was conducted on dogs in the early 1920's at Cornell University. Scientists found a sharp rise in protein/nitrogen retention when exogenous Creatine was supplied in the diet. Increasing protein retention is important because it is stored in muscle tissue, and less is lost through the kidneys.

 

But unlike meat, and especially wild meat, commercial dog food contains very little Creatine. This may be one reason why meat diets, most recently advocated by Dr. Billinghurst, and others over the years, report meat-based or meat-supplemented diets as providing more health benefits than dry commercial dog food alone.

 

The lack of Creatine in commercial dog food, and the replacement of it in meat, may be a part of Nature's wisdom of feeding meat to dogs. So when you feed meat, you provide much more than just protein and amino acids; you replace "lost" wild nutrients missing from commercial dog food. Science is just now beginning to understand "why" meat is so beneficial and productive to dogs. One of these "lost" factors lost in modern foods, but contained in meat, is certainly Creatine.

 

So when you feed meat to your dog--especially raw meat-- you're also supplementing Creatine because Creatine is built into the molecular structure of meat-part of the package. It's clear that Creatine intake is NOT new for dogs. Actually, the absence of Creatine is new. Until commercial dog foods came into being, dogs consumed Creatine in the meat they ate from our plates. With modern dog foods, Creatine intake virtually stopped.

 

 

 

 

oh and here is another piece of information from google search ..........

 

Is Creatine found in normal foods?

 

Yes. Creatine is found naturally in foods. For example, the average helping of beef or fish contains about 1 gram of naturally occurring Creatine. Unfortunately, Creatine is very sensitive to heat and cooking virtually destroys the effectiveness of Creatine.

 

 

I'm fairly sure rabbit meat contains the highest, around 3 grams per pound.

 

 

yep have a look at the thread i just put up mate .............

[dodger 2,664]

Thats me gettin a spare freezer for next season then

[Guest chilli]

Tell this fella he aint fast !!

 

 

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bigrace.htm