Lewdan 17 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 A little over a year ago i added a .22 hornet to my armoury, on my initial application i explained to my fao that it would be mainly used for foxes, he had no problem with this, and added it to my ticket still under use as Vermin Control ( thus i assume fox is regarded as Vermin ) Anyway at least 90% of my permission is outside my issuing authorities area, soooooooo!! if i am ever in a position where i have to produce my ticket to authorities on one of my permissions or more likely on the way home from a permission, what would happen if that area does not concider fox as vermin Do you think it would be wise to ask my fao include "FOX " seperately on my ticket Cheers Quote Link to post
speedystu 0 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS Quote Link to post
hotel2zero 0 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS call them first mate, The vermin on my FAC doesn't include fox (i have a .17hmr) i was told no fox, never! It does vary with different areas so please do call them to cover your arse Quote Link to post
SportingShooter 0 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS Not so, they are all different and interpret the law very differently. Get it checked keith and get it put on there to be safe Quote Link to post
markbivvy 6 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS totally wrong and could drop someone right in the brown stuff. Quote Link to post
Mr_Logic 5 Posted March 30, 2009 Report Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS totally wrong and could drop someone right in the brown stuff. Not at all, get your facts right - neither is right! Keith, I would check it with your FEO, you asked for fox, so likely no problem. BUT In a situation where no separate condition has been added for fox, you are absolutely fine to shoot them on a vermin ticket. I am getting really sick of this debate, but here we go again... There is only one law governing this: Firearms Acts, which state that you must abide by the conditions on your FAC. Foxes can be shot with any weapon you like - air rifles too, if you can get one to work (separate debate, not touching it here). The issue is that IF you don't see fox and vermin as one and the same, then if you shoot a fox when your ticket simply says vermin, you could be deemed to be in breach of your FAC conditions. That is the ONLY possible offence here. The fact of the matter is that foxes, outside of this debate, are almost universally classed as vermin. Therefore, if your firearm certificate lists your rifle as being for vermin control, then this includes fox. The grey area is introduced because Home Office guidelines, and most Police Forces, license fox separately. They do this to ensure that people cannot use fox as a good reason for a rimfire, and also to try to ensure that humane kills with sensible tools are used. This separate licensing means that you end up with FAC conditions, some of which include fox and others don't. For example, my ticket has vermin for my rimfire, and specifically fox for all my CF tools. By implication, my vermin condition does not include fox. HOWEVER, (Keith AFAIK this is you) if my ticket had no mention of fox anywhere upon it, then no implication is made. If I have never asked Police for guidance on this matter, then the ONLY thing I have to go on is the wording of my FAC. It does not reference any other document, it JUST says vermin. Fox is vermin. It is excluded by Home Office guidelines to make a differentiation due to typical fox calibre, not because it isn't vermin (one of the paragraphs implies as much). THEREFORE, even if the CPS decided to prosecute someone with just vermin on their ticket (assuming of course they could prove you shot the fox at all!) then they would have to prove that a fox isn't vermin, or that the FAC holder should have known that a differentiation had been made. This would fail because: a. There is a very long line of people that could be called to testify to the fact that fox is vermin. b. No reference is ever made on an FAC to any other document c. Many Police Forces do classify fox as vermin for licensing purposes. Keith - looks like yours is one of them Therefore, it is basically legal to do this. HOWEVER, there is one caveat - do you really want to go to court to prove this? Someone has to, so make sure it's not you, check it with your FEO. BUT, assuming they do license it as vermin, you are fine to shoot on land in other counties because it is the wording on YOUR ticket that counts, not someone else's ideas, as the ONLY possible offence here is being in breach of YOUR FAC conditions. If you are obeying the conditions, wherever you shoot, how can you be prosecuted by anyone? Quote Link to post
SNAP SHOT 194 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Seems rather odd the different counties have a differing outlook as to what is vermin, thank god here fox is classed as vermin everywhere thus not leading to any confusion, seems a right pain if you have lots of shooting in another county..... snap. Quote Link to post
Guest Ralfy II Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Why risk anything, for the sake of a 20p phone call..simply check with you issueing FLO Quote Link to post
SportingShooter 0 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS totally wrong and could drop someone right in the brown stuff. Not at all, get your facts right - neither is right! Keith, I would check it with your FEO, you asked for fox, so likely no problem. BUT In a situation where no separate condition has been added for fox, you are absolutely fine to shoot them on a vermin ticket. I am getting really sick of this debate, but here we go again... There is only one law governing this: Firearms Acts, which state that you must abide by the conditions on your FAC. Foxes can be shot with any weapon you like - air rifles too, if you can get one to work (separate debate, not touching it here). The issue is that IF you don't see fox and vermin as one and the same, then if you shoot a fox when your ticket simply says vermin, you could be deemed to be in breach of your FAC conditions. That is the ONLY possible offence here. The fact of the matter is that foxes, outside of this debate, are almost universally classed as vermin. Therefore, if your firearm certificate lists your rifle as being for vermin control, then this includes fox. The grey area is introduced because Home Office guidelines, and most Police Forces, license fox separately. They do this to ensure that people cannot use fox as a good reason for a rimfire, and also to try to ensure that humane kills with sensible tools are used. This separate licensing means that you end up with FAC conditions, some of which include fox and others don't. For example, my ticket has vermin for my rimfire, and specifically fox for all my CF tools. By implication, my vermin condition does not include fox. HOWEVER, (Keith AFAIK this is you) if my ticket had no mention of fox anywhere upon it, then no implication is made. If I have never asked Police for guidance on this matter, then the ONLY thing I have to go on is the wording of my FAC. It does not reference any other document, it JUST says vermin. Fox is vermin. It is excluded by Home Office guidelines to make a differentiation due to typical fox calibre, not because it isn't vermin (one of the paragraphs implies as much). THEREFORE, even if the CPS decided to prosecute someone with just vermin on their ticket (assuming of course they could prove you shot the fox at all!) then they would have to prove that a fox isn't vermin, or that the FAC holder should have known that a differentiation had been made. This would fail because: a. There is a very long line of people that could be called to testify to the fact that fox is vermin. b. No reference is ever made on an FAC to any other document c. Many Police Forces do classify fox as vermin for licensing purposes. Keith - looks like yours is one of them Therefore, it is basically legal to do this. HOWEVER, there is one caveat - do you really want to go to court to prove this? Someone has to, so make sure it's not you, check it with your FEO. BUT, assuming they do license it as vermin, you are fine to shoot on land in other counties because it is the wording on YOUR ticket that counts, not someone else's ideas, as the ONLY possible offence here is being in breach of YOUR FAC conditions. If you are obeying the conditions, wherever you shoot, how can you be prosecuted by anyone? Well Put Bud Quote Link to post
jamie g 17 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 told you different forces use differnt means. so would say fox as vermin others wont. i think they like to put it down on its own as granting a 308 with vermin on ticket would sound silly. where deer,fox and vermin looks better Quote Link to post
speedystu 0 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi mate !! don't quote me but "fox" is classed as vermin full stop.......... thus country wide! so it does not matter what constabulary you are in/under. i hope its answered your question. SS totally wrong and could drop someone right in the brown stuff. Apologies for the miss understanding!! Quote Link to post
Mosa 6 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 i got my .17hmr for foxes and is covered under vermin Quote Link to post
cyclonebri1 8 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 This post is going down a common route, yeh? We all know the lack of definision regarding fox/vermin blah blah blah. But, (and I have asked this question at least 5 times before), can anyone quote a single example of any shooter being prossecuted for shooting a fox with the "wrong" calibre???????????????? Quote Link to post
Mr_Logic 5 Posted March 31, 2009 Report Share Posted March 31, 2009 This post is going down a common route, yeh? We all know the lack of definision regarding fox/vermin blah blah blah. But, (and I have asked this question at least 5 times before), can anyone quote a single example of any shooter being prossecuted for shooting a fox with the "wrong" calibre???????????????? No! That's the point. When this occurs it will settle the debate once and for all. Quote Link to post
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