WTF

[cometa300s 20]

this is bang out what does this say about all of us now this me off i feel bad on the child and the father should get corpral punishment in my eyes does my head in.

[ChrisJones 7,975]

they won't get banned.they'll get put on ticket etc. which wont stop accidents happening. its a lose/lose situation.

I think that is a good thing. How many responsible shooting men would leave a loaded and cocked gun around a child?

 

Exactly.

 

This mentality that air guns are simply BB guns, or toys, has to stop and the best way to do that is to put them on ticket.

 

People are calling this a tragic accident. I dispute that. An accident implies that no one was to blame. Leaving a loaded gun in the proximity of a child is a very, very, bad thing and I can't help but wonder if people had to go through some sort of proficiency training that this would happen at all?

 

I do agree though that this guy will live with this for the rest of his life. It may well be punishment enough but I'm very angry that he put his kids in this situation in the first place.

 

Laws won't stop these incidents happening. Agreed there. But education and training will lower the percentage of these incidents, this has been proven time, and time, and time again. The fact that the current law allows anyone to walk into a shop and buy an air gun needs tackling as the distinction between over the counter and FAC is something that a lot of air gun buyers are totally ignorant of.

 

A legal FAC holder would never leave a loaded and cocked rifle lying around as they're well aware of the consequences of such actions. It's shame the same can't be said, in this case.

 

The sooner they go on ticket, the better, at least this way a ban can be avoided. But incidents like this simply play into the hands of the anti shooting groups who are pushing for an outright ban on all firearms. As air guns are perceived as dangerous toys they are the easiest ones to marginalise. Anyone can walk into a shop and walk out with a minimum of a rifle and 500 pellets.

 

The best way to look at it is this. If this child had been injured in a car accident would it have made national news despite the equally tragic consequences? No because there is no campaign to ban cars.

 

The simple explanation is this. We either work to protect our sport, by offering a decent solution. Or we bury our heads in the sand and wait for the ban that incidents like this fuel.

[Sgt.McMuffin 0]

your not wrong there chris.

[Guest bitsa lurcher]

they won't get banned.they'll get put on ticket etc. which wont stop accidents happening. its a lose/lose situation.

I think that is a good thing. How many responsible shooting men would leave a loaded and cocked gun around a child?

 

Exactly.

 

This mentality that air guns are simply BB guns, or toys, has to stop and the best way to do that is to put them on ticket.

 

People are calling this a tragic accident. I dispute that. An accident implies that no one was to blame. Leaving a loaded gun in the proximity of a child is a very, very, bad thing and I can't help but wonder if people had to go through some sort of proficiency training that this would happen at all?

 

I do agree though that this guy will live with this for the rest of his life. It may well be punishment enough but I'm very angry that he put his kids in this situation in the first place.

 

Laws won't stop these incidents happening. Agreed there. But education and training will lower the percentage of these incidents, this has been proven time, and time, and time again. The fact that the current law allows anyone to walk into a shop and buy an air gun needs tackling as the distinction between over the counter and FAC is something that a lot of air gun buyers are totally ignorant of.

 

A legal FAC holder would never leave a loaded and cocked rifle lying around as they're well aware of the consequences of such actions. It's shame the same can't be said, in this case.

 

The sooner they go on ticket, the better, at least this way a ban can be avoided. But incidents like this simply play into the hands of the anti shooting groups who are pushing for an outright ban on all firearms. As air guns are perceived as dangerous toys they are the easiest ones to marginalise. Anyone can walk into a shop and walk out with a minimum of a rifle and 500 pellets.

 

The best way to look at it is this. If this child had been injured in a car accident would it have made national news despite the equally tragic consequences? No because there is no campaign to ban cars.

 

The simple explanation is this. We either work to protect our sport, by offering a decent solution. Or we bury our heads in the sand and wait for the ban that incidents like this fuel.

 

i aggree with most of what you say chris , but what about those of us who have a criminal record and can't get a fac ticket .... let me put it like this to , i broke the law when i was young teenage lunatic , got sentenced served my bird and got released and on release vowed never to go back again . 25 years later and i'm still free . but because of using violent behaviour towards the plodd 25 years ago i can't have a shot gun permitt let alone a fac ticket . the point i'm making is i am reformed but if this ticket on air rifles is passed then i will be an outlaw again . so i would just aswell get my hands on a proper rifle with dirty big bullets in it . instead of pellets do you see my point . if i'm to be knicked with an air rifle and no ticket and there fore risk a 5 year stretch . then i might aswell have a 5 year stretch for having a big gun with real bullets how many people in this country are in the same boat as me that will think along the same lines ?????

[T78 4]

plus,they banned hand guns outright..... have you noticed a drop in handgun crime? no,its got worse. i agree with some sort of restriction/legislation but not a fac. some sort of proficiency tests etc.(similar to being able to ride a moped on a provisional but not a car etc)

[ChrisJones 7,975]

i aggree with most of what you say chris , but what about those of us who have a criminal record and can't get a fac ticket .... let me put it like this to , i broke the law when i was young teenage lunatic , got sentenced served my bird and got released and on release vowed never to go back again . 25 years later and i'm still free . but because of using violent behaviour towards the plodd 25 years ago i can't have a shot gun permitt let alone a fac ticket . the point i'm making is i am reformed but if this ticket on air rifles is passed then i will be an outlaw again . so i would just aswell get my hands on a proper rifle with dirty big bullets in it . instead of pellets do you see my point . if i'm to be knicked with an air rifle and no ticket and there fore risk a 5 year stretch . then i might aswell have a 5 year stretch for having a big gun with real bullets how many people in this country are in the same boat as me that will think along the same lines ?????

I can see your point but my idea of a ticket would be something along the lines of the shotgun ticket but with a proficiency test. It's more to do with safety and marksmanship than anything else along with a lockable cabinet. Stuff alot of do already despite the fact it's voluntary.

 

But in answer to your question I can't see a solution to your personal situation. Criminalising all airguns puts everyone in the same boat and this is the way it will go when there are more stories, like this, hitting the media. Semi autos were outlawed after Hungerford. Handguns after Dunblane. Is anyone that naive that they think airguns are going to be left alone?

 

What would your solution be? As I see it doing nothing won't do anything more than save our sport for a few more years. As tactfully as I can put it, and I'm not trying to be insulting here just put forward sensible discussion on the matter, but why should I have to pay for your mistakes? I don't want to see airguns criminalised and lose my sport and tools to do my job. I'm happy to go through safety training and the ticket road providing it's a sensible restriction and nothing too draconian. As airguns are tools I don't see why a legal compromise should effect you at all. If it's drafted by us instead of by them.

 

I appreciate the circumstances you're in and you will make the decision based on your individual situation, but I'm sorry I don't see why/how that should effect me.

 

plus,they banned hand guns outright..... have you noticed a drop in handgun crime? no,its got worse. i agree with some sort of restriction/legislation but not a fac. some sort of proficiency tests etc.(similar to being able to ride a moped on a provisional but not a car etc)

No it hasn't banned handgun crime at all, I can agree with that, it was very knee jerk especially with the old Soviet countries unloading their armies weaponry onto the European black market. But as no one can legally hold a handgun simply having one in your possession will now get you 5 years... is that something you want as a currently legal shooter? Even if you had them legally and hung onto them... how often do you use it? Wave it around in public? Exactly. You don't/won't because you understand the consequences of such actions and are able to make an informed decision. This clearly hasn't happened with this child being shot, as someone believed that nothing would happen. That kind of naivety comes from complacency. Complacency shouldn't be in our vocabulary as the anti shooting groups are working harder than ever before.

 

Agreeing on what restrictions need to be in place is what we, as shooters need to work on, I agree that the FAC would be too harsh but we need some kind of safety proficiency so that people realise that these are not toys. The point is that if we continue to bury our heads in the sand, then they will be banned without fear or favour to anyone. What then? There's no going back at all. Most people will hand them in, in the resulting amnesty. Some will hold onto them illegally and take their own chances. I'm in the former group. I use them as part of my job and for sport but if they're banned I'll hand mine in and take up something else... The result is that they remove tools from me that will make my job harder, than it is at the moment, but the end result is that as a decent law abiding person I will no longer be able to shoot airguns. I'm sorry but that isn't something I want to explore and I'll try everything I can to circumnavigate any potential future ban.

[Guest bitsa lurcher]

well "chris " i don't blame you for stating " why should i pay for your mistakes " a good point . but in all fairness to a large number of people who have the same dilema as myself "we have served our time and paid our debt to society" the reason i can't get a shot gun permit is because i used violence against 2 police officers who had to call for back up and 2 soon became 8 .... the thing is if the sweeny had not of knocked me off my bike they would of arrested me without provocation .,,,,,, so there we have it .. i was provoked and retaliated and i still get victomised for it . even on a so called hunting forum i am witnessing the kind of one sided attitude of i'm allright jack that has led to the hunting laws that we are all bound by today .... so before it comes about how many will stand and be counted . how many will loby the great and holy goverment of this poxy country . and how many will stand by and say "why should i pay for your mistakes " well i paid for my mistakes myself .... i did my f**king bird or is that not enough for some that are holyier than thow

[Guest foxyjo.]

mmmm.......

 

Let's hope that it doesn't come to any of this. It's one accident with an air rifle, not a mass murder, as Dunblane was.

 

Tightening the laws on airguns won't help any of us hunting lot. I cannot afford to shoot regularly, therefore I have never bothered with my own license, I shoot with friends guns on their ground. However, my lad is as keen as hell, and eleven years old. He has been begging for a 4.10 which he knows I just can't do, so we have compromised on an air rifle. We don't have it yet, it's a Christmas pressie to come! But if I had to start going on courses, installing gun cabinets and paying license fees, it would start to slip into the realms of impossible, there's just too many other things to pay for. Air rifles are a way of teaching youngsters about firearms and are still attainable for single mothers with hunting mad sons! As they are for chaps who've done a bit of time, and people who suffer with depression, (correst me if I'm wrong but I gather that can hugely affect whether you get a license or not?)

 

We're in this together aren't we? I am a foxhunter firstly, I met a lot of people marching round London, Bournemouth, Brighton, and the like, who were involved in different country sports, but they marched with us... If we all start looking out only for ourselves and compromising so that only our own angles are covered in these matters, we'll all be lost. Britain has managed for years without tickets for airguns, one accident, (stupid but undoubtedly unintentional) does not mean we need big change.

[ChrisJones 7,975]

well "chris " i don't blame you for stating " why should i pay for your mistakes " a good point . but in all fairness to a large number of people who have the same dilema as myself "we have served our time and paid our debt to society" the reason i can't get a shot gun permit is because i used violence against 2 police officers who had to call for back up and 2 soon became 8 .... the thing is if the sweeny had not of knocked me off my bike they would of arrested me without provocation .,,,,,, so there we have it .. i was provoked and retaliated and i still get victomised for it . even on a so called hunting forum i am witnessing the kind of one sided attitude of i'm allright jack that has led to the hunting laws that we are all bound by today .... so before it comes about how many will stand and be counted . how many will loby the great and holy goverment of this poxy country . and how many will stand by and say "why should i pay for your mistakes " well i paid for my mistakes myself .... i did my f**king bird or is that not enough for some that are holyier than thow

It's not a case of I'm alright jack. Airguns are very close to being banned and all because of these so called accidents that happen. I'm hoping you misread what I said because I'm certainly not holier than thou but the same reason you can't have a firearms certificate is the same reason I can. Yes you made mistakes, you paid the penalty and you have to live your life the best you can. I'm not here to condemn you as I don't know you and I never will but the reality here is that airguns are going to banned, or put on ticket. That will only effect me for the length of time it takes to get the necessary approval but for yourself it will end your legal sport. I certainly don't want that and I'm sure you don't either.

 

Shooting groups, and us shooters, have a limited platform to make reforms, to our sport. If we bury our heads in the sand and wait for the government to decide for us then we're likely never to use airguns again. At least not legally. If it was up to me I would try and instigate some kind of proficiency test for sub 12ft/lbs air rifles and more stringent test for 12+. If I had it my way it wouldn't effect people in your situation, as this is about safety and in no way about criminal misuse of firearms. I'm in no position to judge your personal circumstances, your situation is unfortunate but so is the future of airgunning if we don't act now. Changes are coming and you risk losing your sport all together. Same as me and everyone else who uses the forum.

 

The point is what you do in your life doesn't effect me. We don't know each other. We've never met and we never will. But the actions of this guy who left his gun unattended will have reaching consequences for both of us.

 

This government is very keen on self regulation. If we play their game we just may keep our rifles in a compromise that would see us left alone. If we don't play their game then they will decide with or without our help.

 

mmmm.......

 

Let's hope that it doesn't come to any of this. It's one accident with an air rifle, not a mass murder, as Dunblane was.

If you add these incidents up and the several major changes in air gun law, in previous years, it is a big deal. Criminal use of firearms is threat we all face if they ban airguns.

 

Tightening the laws on airguns won't help any of us hunting lot. I cannot afford to shoot regularly, therefore I have never bothered with my own license, I shoot with friends guns on their ground. However, my lad is as keen as hell, and eleven years old. He has been begging for a 4.10 which he knows I just can't do, so we have compromised on an air rifle. We don't have it yet, it's a Christmas pressie to come! But if I had to start going on courses, installing gun cabinets and paying license fees, it would start to slip into the realms of impossible, there's just too many other things to pay for. Air rifles are a way of teaching youngsters about firearms and are still attainable for single mothers with hunting mad sons! As they are for chaps who've done a bit of time, and people who suffer with depression, (correst me if I'm wrong but I gather that can hugely affect whether you get a license or not?)

Do you realise that buy buying him an air rifle you're committing an offence? That's the reality of the recently passed VCR bill.

 

We're in this together aren't we? I am a foxhunter firstly, I met a lot of people marching round London, Bournemouth, Brighton, and the like, who were involved in different country sports, but they marched with us... If we all start looking out only for ourselves and compromising so that only our own angles are covered in these matters, we'll all be lost. Britain has managed for years without tickets for airguns, one accident, (stupid but undoubtedly unintentional) does not mean we need big change.

I've been to all the marches. I'm a shooter but I've worked lurchers, terriers and ferrets. I understand the feelings of this as well as all do and this isn't a case of looking out for myself. This shot toddler is the latest in a line of incidents and ministerial opinion is moving towards an outright ban on airguns. If we don't try and meet them half way then we risk either a total ban or FAC restrictions. That doesn't help anybody, especially bitsa lurcher who would be in a lose, lose situation like many.

 

Making our own solution is the last chance we have at saving the airgun from draconian restriction. We've already agreed that licensing or banning won't stop the criminal use of any guns but it will stop law abiding shooters going about their perfectly safe, legal, work/sport.

 

As a foxhunter first and foremost you'll understand what happens when our prohunting organisations do absolutely f**k all to help out and wait until the day it's about to be banned to offer any kind of compromise to avoid an outright ban.

 

Learn from 2005.

 

Doing nothing is completely the wrong attitude.

[Fidgety 8]

Definately in favour of compulsory basic training (like for mororbikes) before buying an air weapon or using one without supervision, certificate to be carried when out and about. Should include a bit about quarry too.

Just my thoughts, good debate!

Edited August 31, 2008 by Fidgety

[Guest foxyjo.]

Chris, could you explain this VCR bill? How will I be commiting an offence?

 

Perhaps you are thinking of my son beiing 11? If so, it wouldn't be "technically" for him. I own an old 12 bore, that isn't technically mine either.

 

I'm unaware of all these other incidents, but that isn't surprising. As far as I knew this was just a one off accident, it's certainly the only one I've seen on the news recently. I do appreciate we live in a time where everything is dictated by Health and Safety and the politically correct, and there is weight to your argument about meeting them head on before a potential ban could be brought in. But I fail to see what compromise would have saved hunting with dogs. They did it. It is one big compromise now, but by doing it sooner we'd only have cut short what time we had left. We could have finished with the Waterloo Cup and stopped huntsmen wearing red coats, years ago, and hoped that made us less visable, but I think that would have been the wrong thing to do.

 

As far as I'm concerned hunting is my god given right and I'd rather fight tooth and nail for it, in it's wholesome total, than pander to those dictators.

 

If the government, (which lets face it, is fairly well buggered and clinging on by it's breaking teeth), decided airguns are to go, they will go. A course on safety won't change anything. All it would take is for one more "accident" or "incident" after the safety courses and tickets were brought in, for all the do-gooders to cry that it wasn't enough. I think it unlikely the Tories will bother with airguns, they are dependant on the likes of the shooting and hunting lot to push home a victory on the strength of the repeal. Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense the country has had enough of these finickety little bills, and it will be the last thing on their agenda to bring in another.

[droid 11]

You make some good points there, Chris. However, we are not in a strong position if the (illegal) 'tuning' of air guns is tacitly condoned here.

 

I refer to the 'nudge nudge wink wink' comments about some people's guns being over 12 ft/lb. We have people openly admitting trying to increase the power of their guns (and possibly knackering them in the process) and opening/closing ports to 'adjust' power.

 

Maybe this needs to be addressed before we have it addressed for us.

Edited September 1, 2008 by droid

[ChrisJones 7,975]

Definately in favour of compulsory basic training (like for mororbikes) before buying an air weapon or using one without supervision, certificate to be carried when out and about. Should include a bit about quarry too.

Just my thoughts, good debate!

Something as simple as that could have totally prevented this incident and avoided a tragedy and a national headline. I honestly can't see the problem with sensible restriction on sales and usage. The "If You Outlaw Guns, Then Only Outlaws Will Have Them" debate is fine when we're talking about self defence but airguns are legitimate tools for a legitimate use. Like banning circular saws because someone lost a finger. Equally you wouldn't leave your saw plugged in and walk away leaving a 5 year old playing nearby.

 

Chris, could you explain this VCR bill? How will I be commiting an offence?

The VCR Bill is the Violent Crime Reduction Bill. It's now an act of parliament, as of November 2006. Parts of it have been introduced later on, in April and October 2007.

 

Basically the bit that applies to this is that it's an offence to buy, hire or receive an air rifle or its ammunition as a gift, or shoot, without adult supervision, if you are under 14.

 

Perhaps you are thinking of my son beiing 11? If so, it wouldn't be "technically" for him. I own an old 12 bore, that isn't technically mine either.

It doesn't matter about the technicality. If he's not under the supervision, of someone at least 21 years old, at all times whilst in possession of it you're committing an offence under the VCR Act.

 

I'm unaware of all these other incidents, but that isn't surprising. As far as I knew this was just a one off accident, it's certainly the only one I've seen on the news recently.

Appreciated it's a recent one but it's one of many. One of the more notorious incidents, that has allowed the anti gun movement to gain momentum was the death of young Andrew Morton, in 2005. It certainly prompted strong feelings throughout the country.

 

I do appreciate we live in a time where everything is dictated by Health and Safety and the politically correct, and there is weight to your argument about meeting them head on before a potential ban could be brought in. But I fail to see what compromise would have saved hunting with dogs. They did it. It is one big compromise now, but by doing it sooner we'd only have cut short what time we had left. We could have finished with the Waterloo Cup and stopped huntsmen wearing red coats, years ago, and hoped that made us less visable, but I think that would have been the wrong thing to do.

In 1997 they said they would ban hunting. No one thought they had the balls to do it. Yet they did 8 years later. They had nearly a decade to offer a solution and they waited until the day it was being read in parliament, to hold a rally. I know because I was there along with many other members of this forum. By the time the Middle Way option was considered, by our side, it had already been passed into law. There is no hope of repeal only a hope of tolerance.

 

What we're trying to do here is pre-empt a ban by looking, realistically at what is happening to the airgun community and trying to find a way of solving the problems it has without ministerial intervention. This is fairly straight forward. We act first and at least attempt to present them with a solution.

 

Who is in a better position to offer sensible regulation of airguns? Us? The shooting groups? Or the anti shooting ministers in the House Of Commons? I know who I don't want deciding the future of my sport.

 

The fact is though that if they want to they will ban it. The idea is try and avoid such a situation by being reasonable. The British public will not tolerate these tragedies much longer and the sooner we act the more of a chance we have to save the sport.

 

As far as I'm concerned hunting is my god given right and I'd rather fight tooth and nail for it, in it's wholesome total, than pander to those dictators.

I couldn't agree more but you are in a minority. Too many roll over and accept their lot. They simply can't be arsed. We get the government we deserve, unfortunately.

 

Hunting is my god given right, also. I will do it, one way or another. The point is I would rather do it without having to look over my shoulder.

 

If the government, (which lets face it, is fairly well buggered and clinging on by it's breaking teeth), decided airguns are to go, they will go. A course on safety won't change anything. All it would take is for one more "accident" or "incident" after the safety courses and tickets were brought in, for all the do-gooders to cry that it wasn't enough. I think it unlikely the Tories will bother with airguns, they are dependant on the likes of the shooting and hunting lot to push home a victory on the strength of the repeal. Maybe I'm wrong, but I sense the country has had enough of these finickety little bills, and it will be the last thing on their agenda to bring in another.

I can partly agree with that. If they want it gone it will be. But that will a decision based on ignorance and simply accepting that is tantamount to handing the guns in now as there is absolutely no f*****g point in anything. The fact is the Labour government are very, very, keen on self regulation and this is our current avenue for self preservation. By taking the opportunity to show them that we're cleaning up the sport and attempting to right some hefty wrongs we may, just may, avoid something draconian. But regardless of what happens if they want it banned it will be.

 

Now the Tories. The Tories are no better. If you remember they banned handguns in 1996, Blair just rubber stamped it. Fact is it was a knee jerk reaction to a serious tragedy and kids being killed by guns is a vote winner. They won't do anything if they think they're going to lose seats over it so don't rely to heavily on what they say.

 

Finicky bills. There are dozens of them being passed every day. Believe me the political machine loves them as it chews up tax £'s and keeps people in jobs. How many airgun incidents before it goes from finicky bill to big f*****g deal? 1? 2? 5?

 

As for the hunting ban. It will never be repealed. Ever. The best chance we have is a degree of tolerance decreed by a pro-hunt Home Secretary.

 

You make some good points there, Chris. However, we are not in a strong position if the (illegal) 'tuning' of air guns is tacitly condoned here.

 

I refer to the 'nudge nudge wink wink' comments about some people's guns being over 12 ft/lb. We have people openly admitting trying to increase the power of their guns (and possibly knackering them in the process) and opening/closing ports to 'adjust' power.

 

Maybe this needs to be addressed before we have it addressed for us.

I couldn't agree more. The policy of this forum, while I've been moderator, has been to remove all content about tuning. However I can't be here all the time and only two people here bother to report anything to my attention. I'm not excusing my lack of action I'm simply highlighting that there are over a thousand members to a moderator on this forum and I simply can not keep up with every single post. Increasingly people are taking advantage of this and post what they feel like.

 

What you have highlighted though is an endemic problem in the airgun community. One that we are trying to address and one that is very serious. It's so endemic that people joke about tuning sub 12 guns into firearms and it is this attitude that puts our heads above the parapet, and is partly the reason why we're sliding towards even more restriction to a possible outright ban. Other forums openly embrace tuning. Some members of the forum that shall not be named have said as much on here. They don't see an issue with it. I do and as long as I can do something about it I'll do it to the best of my ability and to the time restrictions I have.

 

Our opponents read this forum as much as we do. They take notes. They print pages. They are assembling their dossier to apply their agenda and their political pressure to control our destiny. We sit idly believing that we're in the right. We aren't just giving them their information, we're gift wrapping it for them. Before the hunting forums existed antis had to go out in the field and catch people in the act, to get their propaganda. Now all they have to do is switch the computer on, make a brew, and sit in their pyjamas while they screen shot, print and download everything they want to promote their agenda.

 

My plea goes out again. if you see anything that is harmful to our cause. Please. Pretty Please. With Sugar On Top. Send me a PM or better still hit the Report button on the post in question. The report button alerts all moderators to a given post... the sad fact is that I've not answered a reported post in the last 6 months, only PM's, yet I've deleted dozens, if not hundreds, of comments and posts that are very harmful to the forum and to hunting/airgunning in general.

 

A community looks out for itself. We're either part of the solution or we're part of the problem.

[Guest foxyjo.]

Interesting thoughts.

 

Thank you for your explaination of the VCR bill. I was aware of the age limit, and he would be supervised anyway. It's our easiest route for him to continue shooting on a more regular basis, as a youngster. I want to encourage him, and as I simply cannot do the 4.10 route, which is his preferred gun, this is the compromise! The air rifle will of course belong to me, I wouldn't get it if it were not for him, and it will be him using it, and as I said, he will be under constant supervision when doing so. So I hope that puts us in the clear!

 

I appreciate your opinion on finding your own solutions first. It makes sense, but it's certainly a tricky one...

 

With regard to the hunting ban, to be fair, the CA started thie rallies long before that day in Westminster. The compromises that were spoken of, were such things as dis-continuing the use of red coats, avoiding subsciptions and generally anything that showed that we enjoyed out sport. Utterly pointless. The "toff" image of hunting a pack of hounds was tackled as best it could have been, with people from all walks of life being paraded about as proof "normal" sorts enjoyed it too. In my opinion, there is little more the Countryside Alliance could have done. The grittier stuff, left to the "real Counryside Alliance" was interesting for a while, some of it I thoroughly enjoyed, some of it I thought stupid.

 

Our problems as a community lie in lack of eduaction. Rather than crippling our sports with nonsensical restrictions, promises to look like tramps and become socialists, how much better if a group of intelligent, eloquent people were sent around our schools and colleges with the intention of educating the general public about vermin control? This is what I would like to see the CA organising, not rural heroes. It is ridiculous to go on patting ourselves on the back for being hunters, when it's only us listening!

 

I have to disagree with you on your prediction on the furture of a repeal. It is what all our attentions should be focused on. I know a couple of Conservative MP's personaly, and they have both assured me that as a party, they will repeal it. Now, I'm not completely stupid, politicians are tricksy buggers, but it is a chance worth hoping and working for. The apathy showed by some "hunters" is incredible. All I can conclude is that they don't care as much as they should. Just before the last general election, the Master where I was at the time, was loading us into coaches and sending us off round london to aid the Tory campaign. It certainly helped and hopefully, with the economy being in the situation it is, and general anti-Brown feeling, they stand a much better chance this time round. How many people off this site will be volunteering their services? If enough of us help, they are almost backed into a corner to give us what we want, and if they didn't...well, time for the real CA to come back out of the box. In any case, it's our best shot, and should be fought for wholeheartedly.

Edited September 1, 2008 by foxyjo.

[droid 11]

Our opponents read this forum as much as we do. They take notes. They print pages. They are assembling their dossier to apply their agenda and their political pressure to control our destiny. We sit idly believing that we're in the right. We aren't just giving them their information, we're gift wrapping it for them. Before the hunting forums existed antis had to go out in the field and catch people in the act, to get their propaganda. Now all they have to do is switch the computer on, make a brew, and sit in their pyjamas while they screen shot, print and download everything they want to promote their agenda.

 

That is an extremely important point, and one that is rather ignored by a substantial minority on here.

THL might be like a conversation in the pub to some, but everything posted here is here until deleted by Mods. It can be read by anyone and can be saved to disc, printed out or passed on. You might as well post your comments on a 20m hoarding next to a Motorway. it's that open.

 

We are NOT having private conversations.