Positive Training

[Snifferboy 659]

Evening,

 

so I've been lent a book on positive training and I'm about half way through it now. I just read a chapter on not saying no to your dog or reprimanding them in any way when they do something wrong, instead you are to ignore them 'because they are doing it to gain your attention'. Now I can see the benefits of that up until your dog tears across the field and starts chasing sheep or even killing them. Which brings me to the question, how many of you use positive methods of training? As apposed to traditional methods, especially for lurchers being that they are capable of catching and killing etc. Or is there a happy medium between the two? Just interested on your take,

 

All the best

 

Sniffer

[Moll. 1,793]

Used the same techniques with patients (Mentally handicapped with challenging behaviours) years ago. And the theory is correct. Any attention is better than no attention at all. Reward positives, ignore negatives. If you do it correctly, by rewarding positives and ignoring negatives then negatives are less likely to happen because they will get all the attention and rewards they want by doing good things.

 

But of course there are lines you have to draw. When for no apparent reason something happens, like extreme aggression.

 

It is a very hard thing to put into practice, for example with your sheep query....you reward the behaviour when it walks through sheep and ignores them, what do you then do if it decides to become interested. Do you ignore it and risk it running at them, do you distract it, and then reward it with the distraction which would be something good for the dog (attention) Would a dog then associate being interested in sheep as a precursor to something good (the distraction) Or would it work.

The problem with dogs is....they are dogs. They are all different and not one single one is 100% trustworthy, no matter how well trained they are.

 

What i have found out training wise with dogs (as well as humans), they learn things you never even intended to teach them by you showing joy and happiness. If a dog does something which makes you laugh, you usually find the dog will remember this and do it time and time again, especially when it wants something Positives reinforcement does indeed work better than negative, but there are definitely times you need to use negatives, and negatives work better when you normally use positives, as they feel it more imo.

[Marvin 193]

I find the naughty step treatment doesn't work with my dog, he just goes back to his bed for a kip and sending him to bed doesnt work either cos he loves a snooze

[Snifferboy 659]

Thanks Moll thats a decent reply has anyone else got anything else to add?

[skycat 6,174]

IMO the more positive reinforcement you can use when the dog is young, still a pup, the better, BUT there comes a time when you will have to use negative reinforcement: usually as it starts growing up. You can see the way wild dogs etc treat their pups: they let them get away with a lot, but if there is something which is likely to damage a pup, then they step in and tell the pup off: negative reinforcement.

 

An adult will also set a pup up to learn a lesson: I see it in my own dogs. An adult is chewing a bone, and it deliberately takes the bone near to where the pup is, then lies down and starts chewing, knowing full well that the pup will come and investigate. The adult then tells the pup off with a growl, and if there is no reaction to the growl, then a very controlled snap: just enough to let the pup that it means business: "Come near my bone again and I'll hammer you!" It doesn't of course, and the most I've ever seen any of my grown dogs do to a pup is get the pup's head in their jaws and growl savagely, frightening the life out of the pup, but not ever really hurting it.

 

So we have to be prepared to do the same in cases where we really mean business, such as with livestock, roads, cars etc etc. Or even if the pup is acting up and trying us out to see how far it can go. Most training can be done with reward (positive reinforcement), and you should build a habit of always praising the pup/dog whenever it does right, like coming when it is called. Or praise it when it is doing nothing at all: if that is the behaviour you want to fix.

 

The only time I would use negative reinforcement in the recall is when the dog, usually a bolshy teen, is acting up and going awol. At times like these I will actively drive the dog away from me when it does eventually come back: dogs hate being excluded from the pack, but you have to be able to read your dog to perfection, and already have a very good relationship with it normally. It's not something I would recommend unless you have studied the subject a lot, and know when to allow the dog 'back into the pack'. There is also a danger in doing this with teenage male pups because they would often be driven out of the pack to form a 'band of brothers' whilst they finish their growing up. They aren't necessarily completely separate to the main pack, but they do form sub groups where they can all behave like hooligans together LOL

 

The other thing that books etc often forget to tell you is that the type of training you need to use depends a lot on the individual temperament and breeding of the dog. Some dogs need a lot harder hand than others, and some, although bolshy at times, are very sensitive and need careful handling. Thankfully most domestic dogs are pretty middle of the road in their mentality, and ready to accept our authority without too much problem! But there's always the odd one designed to drive their owners round the bend!

[Snifferboy 659]

Thanks Skycat much appreciated. I'm well chuffed you 2 (Skycat and Moll) have replied to this as I hold your opinions very highly.

 

Sorry for brown nosing

 

All the best

 

Sniffer

[Moll. 1,793]

Thank you sniffer

 

One observation.....

 

You see mothers out with their kids, the type who are always shouting loudly at their kids telling them off. The reason they are always shouting loudly is because....they always shout loudly!!! and because they always shout loudly the kids have learned to ignore it...it means nothing.

 

It's just the same with dogs

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

I have both young kids and dogs .... and most of what Moll and Skycat applies to both

 

Positive training is very useful. But without an understanding of consequences, positive training is moot imo. For instance .... at my son's school there was a very wayward child. He would regularly kick off: ripping things off the walls, throwing things, kicking kids, climbing up things etc etc. The other children were simply told to ignore him and if they didn't do that they were bollocked (very wrong if you ask me). So one day my son, then 6, came home and had a tantrum of epic proportions. Very out of character for him. When I asked him what was going on he said 'you're supposed to ignore me till I finish' as this apparently was what they were learning at school. Moll, who knows me well, can imagine my reaction Not only did I not ignore him, he learned the important lesson of consequences. Behave like that in my house and lose all privileges, ie tv, video games, playing out etc. Grounded. For a full week. So now he gets it. Behaving like that is not acceptable, it will not be tolerated, and there are consequences if you chose to try it on.

 

All the positive training in the world can not teach a being about consequences for stepping out of line. As has been said above, the more positivity you use, the more effective the negativity is. But for me the two go hand in hand. With kids, and with dogs

[skycat 6,174]

There's that old saying: spare the rod and spoil the child. Now I'd never condone beating or hitting kids or dogs, but once in a while, a short sharp shock works wonders on the brat or pup that is determined to test you to the limit. Without firm boundaries all young things run the risk of getting themselves in to serious trouble: hey, just look at today's society!

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

There's that old saying: spare the rod and spoil the child. Now I'd never condone beating or hitting kids or dogs, but once in a while, a short sharp shock works wonders on the brat or pup that is determined to test you to the limit. Without firm boundaries all young things run the risk of getting themselves in to serious trouble: hey, just look at today's society!

 

Amen to that!

[Snifferboy 659]

Brilliant, thats just confirmed what I thought I knew already but questioned myself when I got lent the book. So when reprimanding your dog (when the limit has been pushed) how much is enough, where do you draw the line? I know every dog is different but how do you want your dog to respond at the point they been told off?

Thanks for your reply Lurchergrrl