Saluki Cross Progress

[kevin from bristol 95]

bonding plays a big part for me they allways listen better if the are bonded to you

[DogMagic 461]

Garath re read whats already been said mate. Forget about work for now, just be friends with that dog. Build the bond. f**k everything else! Iv got a saluki x myself and my god she can be a proper little madam when she wants to be! Lol! Mine is 9 months old now and iv had 9 months of frustration and anger, everytime and i MEAN EVERYTIME its time to end the days walk she kept out the way so i couldnt get a lead on her or get her in the car. As has been said its a good job i didnt have a gun with me on those walks cos im certain i would of shot her as the only way i was ever going to get near enough to her again! Lol! But i didnt thank god, i persavered. Yes there has been a lot of times i have been sat in a carpark in the pissing rain plaintively pleading with her to "come on baby, come here" etc. And then a couple of weeks ago i did something very simple. I bought an extendable lead and a pot of "coachies". Every now and then on our walks i would call her and if she comes i make a big fuss of her and give her a coachie. I dont squat down any more or give it the baby voice. I just say her name and come here. Or sometimes i just go "oi" and when she looks just nod. Every single time she comes first time she gets tonnes of fuss and a coachie. Every time she needs a tug on the lead to remind her she gets no fuss but still gets the coachie. I only started this 2 weeks ago. I stopped bothering with the lead 1 week ago, its just not needed anymore. She is free to please herself and i know i can call her now and she will RUN to me. I havent started "training" yet because she is far to young and immature for that. As skycat said a saluki x is still a puppy untill 2 years old. Some say 3 years! The only training iv done with mine is to encourage her to jump a 4 ft sheep mesh fence. She didnt have the self belief for it for quite a while but one day, after seeing my others do it countless times sheer determination got the better of her and she did it and she got a hell of a fuss made of her that day and i swear i could see her grinning from ear to ear she was so pleased with herself! Lol! Just forget the training and just enjoy his company, build the bond. Find a treat he likes enough to come to you and get an extendable lead. And make a game out of EVERYTHING you do with him. And if he does something he wasnt able to do yesterday make sure he KNOWS you are delighted with him.

[skycat 6,174]

That is such good advice Dogmagic. The bond IS EVERYTHING. My big lad who is now 3 1/2 years of age has finally accepted that it really is better to do as I say, yes, it has taken that long, and I pride myself on being a reasonably competent trainer: this dog has such a high prey drive coupled with the Saluki independence that he's been a challenge since day one. I admit that I've had to compromise heavily over training issues, and although I know I'll never achieve the instant come here without question, I did after all, want a hunting dog, not just something to run off the end of a slip, and with a Saluki type, especially a strong willed one, you pays your money and you takes your chance.

 

We have now reached the stage where he knows that at certain places during exercise he HAS to come into heel, for safety reasons, but most of the time I allow him to go where he wants (where it is safe). If he doesn't get a certain amount of actual hunting in every day, say, if I miss a day and he stays on the lead apart from a little gallop in the open, I know that the day after he is likely to bugger off and do his own thing, depending on where we go.

 

Sometimes I see him standing on the landfill site with a rabbit in his mouth, several hundred yards away from me and the other dogs. I whistle, and he'll carry on standing there, looking around for more rabbits, before eventually coming to me carrying the rabbit.

 

I've told this to try and show just how different these sort of dogs are to non Saluki blooded dogs. These dogs don't 'obey' in the way we expect other lurchers to obey. They are thinking all the time, and the only way you can get them to do what YOU want is to make the thing you want them to do is also the thing THEY want to do. So it takes time, patience, getting inside their heads, and working with them, rather than trying to force them to obey you. There has to be a reason for a Saluki type to obey, rather than just doing something to please you. Yes, you can use force, and sometimes it is necessary, but force should only be employed once you have that bond with the dog, and the dog trusts you implicitly.

 

Even then, even if the dog comes when called 99% of the time, their drive is so strong and their 'self employed' attitude so deeply engrained, that if game appears on their radar, you'll be relatively powerless to stop them chasing, unless the spirit of the animal has been completely broken. This is my opinion of the Saluki type.

 

P.S. Taking these dogs ferreting is a really good way to help establish the working bond between owner and dog as it allows the dog to work in close proximity with you, as well as getting focus at close quarters where you have more control. I've had my dog ferreting along hedgerows whilst hares bounce around in the fields on each side: such is his concentration on the warrens that unless a hare directly crosses his path, he doesn't notice them. Once we stop ferreting however, he starts to look across the fields. It really is a question of getting the dog to focus fully, whether on you, a warren or whatever task you have in mind.

 

And I've also used fur dummy lures to attract a pup of this type to call it in: bit like a falcon coming to the lure. If it is furry and moving it is a far more attractive proposition than a simple recall.

[hedz31 1,308]

Good for you for learning from this experience. Saluki types are so very different to your run of the mill Collie or Bull crosses. Their brains just don't develop in the same way as other dogs, of that I am sure. There is a reason that no one does classic obedience comps with a Saluki! They just don't 'do' obeying for the sake of it, but once you get that partnership sorted they are amazing dogs. I always feel highly honoured when my Saluki types retrieve to me: and it means I've got the bond right. You just can't expect them to sit, down, stay etc like Collie types. Yes, it can come eventually, but never with that robotic/desperate to please the owner attitude.

 

To be honest, I don't even try and train my Saluki types in that way: as long as they come when I call them (most of the time ), retrieve what they catch, then I'm happy. If I wanted to have a down/stay type of dog I would have got a Collie.........or an Airedale If ever I get it into my head to do endless retrieving or heel work, then I turn to the Airedale

 

However, the more you work with your pup, and the more you do interesting stuff with him, the better he'll get: and don't forget that he'll be at least 2 years old before he's mentally mature.

Is that why ye accidently mated ye airedale to ye saluki cross

[skycat 6,174]

:laugh: I'm really reaping the whirlwind right now! And as I've said elsewhere, I wouldn't in a million years have thought to put those two types/breeds together: the drive in these two is pretty full on, but they are still a lot more biddable than the Saluki lurcher, though the black one is seriously driven. I can see I am going to have some fun when I start lamping her

 

With what I've seen in these pups so far, it was probably a really good thing to happen. They do want to please me, but at the same time have all those Saluki independent traits I value so highly. Mind you, the Airedale can be independent too: she has two modes: play mode where she will jump through hoops to please me and have fun herself at the same time, and full on hunting mode where only the scent of game fills her head. Looking forward to this winter more than I've done for many years!

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Thanks for the replies folks.

 

Took him a walk tonight with a tennis ball in one pocket and bag of diced cheese in the other (a lad off here suggested it as a treat).

 

Gave him a taste of the cheese in exchange for  a couple of "sits" on the way to the field/lanes.surprisingly he was VERY responsive and would sit, paw, lie etc for cheese! Which he hasn't done for a very long time!

 

So I let him off when we got to the fields and he was walking virtually to heel (again I think because he knew I had got the cheese). I called him to me, sit and slip lead on in exchange for a small piece about 4 times before throwing the tennis ball. He got it and dropped it about 3 foot from me before sitting for a treat. He then retrieved it and put it in my hand about 4 times more, a couple of times I thanked him with a fuss instead of a treat. 

 

Now the real test, I let him off when we got back home in the front garden, no gates or fences, and he always runs across the road to the neighbours dog. 

 

But not today, he followed me to heel all the way to the back garden and sat for a final piece of cheese.

 

So... He can do it. And more to the point, I can do it.

 

Tomorrow I plan to try with the rabbit skin dummy instead of tennis ball.

 

Now, how do I get him working for ME and not for CHEESE???

 

Thanks,

 

Gaz.

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

I'd work out what other nibbles he likes - then I'd carry a mixed bag instead of just the cheese. Bits of things he likes, so that every time it's a different reward. I'd also keep up with mostly-food rewards, adding in the fusses as you have, for a good while. Then gradually phase out the food and phase in the fuss. Once things click between you and solidify, I reckon you'll be up and away

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Thanks lurcher girl.

 

So do you think that if I use the treats as a training aid then when I am 100% happy with him then slowly phase them out. So just 1 or 2 treats per walk. Then maybe only give treats on every second or third walk?

 

And hopefully by the time the treats are phased out the bond should be stronger between us?

 

Went out again this morning, few pieces of cheese and a few pieces of cooked sausage. (I know these treats are bad for a working dog but I'd rather him put a few lb on now and shape him into a working companion than end up shooting him, lol) And he was near perfect. Walking close by off lead, recall sound, retrieve of tennis ball to hand 4 times, ran a rabbit (accident) and recalled to hand after the chase.

 

What sort of time scale do you think I should be working on? As in, when to swap tennis ball for rabbit skin dummy? When to phase treats out?

 

Thanks alot

 

Gaz

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Oh dear.

 

Okay thanks to this who have already given me advice on getting rocky to retrieve and generally be more obedient.

 

Now I need some more I'm afraid...

 

Since being advised to try the treats i have had him doing everything I want. He would retrieve a tennis ball to hand which is something he had never done before.

 

This morning, I switched the tennis ball back to the rabbit skin dummy (which I was having issues with before).

 

First throw, slip him, he buggers off with it. Eventually bringing it about 8 foot away and dropping it and then coming in for his treat. So I sit him, slip lead on walk up to dummy, take it and give him the treat.

 

So he can see that the treat is in exchange for the dummy!?

 

Second throw, he picks it up and disappears for a good 30 seconds or so. I found him in a bush digging a hole to bury it in.

 

So I give him a bollocking to let him know he has done wrong. Lead on and start walking home. Dummy in hand.

 

I thought that if I can get used to him giving me the dummy and me taking it in exchange for treats then maybe we will get somewhere?

 

So I gave him the dummy for about 20 seconds and let him walk with it. Then took it and gave him a treat. Repeated. Repeated. Then on the third or fourh time he lay down with it (on lead) and started tearing at the skin with his teeth and paws like he would with a piece of meat and trying to eat it.

 

As I went to take it he turned nasty (like he is with food) and wouldn't let me take it. So more bollocking, lead in one hand, by this time he had dropped the dummy by accident, and as I was trying to pick it up he was snarling and snapping at my arms and face about the same as my mums Doberman would if a stranger walked in the house. Lips up showing teeth, hairs up in back, head down, growling snarling etc.

 

Now this is how he is with food and a bowl of water for that matter.

 

When he was a pup I made a point of taking food off him regular to get him used to it, no issues at all. Then when he hit 6 months I got a Terrier bitch and since then he hasn't let me near his food.

 

I have spent hours trying everything to take food from him just incase this happened one day. But someone told me that being persistent and bollocking him and forcing him to give up his food could break our bond further.

 

So I just accepted that he would need to be fed alone and left alone while eating.

 

He is NEVER aggressive when food is not around. He will not try to take my food.

 

Also I have NEVER fed him rabbit or anything with fur on.

 

Please advise someone!!!

 

Gaz

[skycat 6,174]

The dog is putting one over on you, big time! He really needs to know who is boss by now. I'm not suggesting you beat him up, but instil some serious respect. No dog should EVER growl its owner off food. I'm not a fan of taking food from a dog to show who is boss, but none of mine would ever even think to growl me off their food if I bend over to move the bowl or whatever. It is a mixture of trust and respect which you nee from a dog.

 

The problem with giving advice on the internet is that its just that: writing on the internet, which is no substitute for seeing the dog in the flesh, and more importantly, seeing the owner interact with the dog. Without seeing exactly how you and the dog behave together I'm afraid that all the advice in the world doesn't always work.

 

It sounds to me as though the dog has been calling the shots for a long time, and if he obeys you it is only because he thinks that he has something to gain from it, rather than by respecting your status as leader. Bollocks to what some modern dog behaviourists say about dominant owners/its not about dominance etc etc. Some things are about dominance and at the end of the day the dog should know that you are the dominant part of the pack. However, trying to reverse your situation isn't something I would want to advise in writing as the dog is already growling at you over food: bad bad situation indeed.

 

If you really want to solve the problem then contact a good behaviourist like Jim Greenwood who will come to your place and work with you and the dog together. Experienced owners might think that these behaviourists are just making money off the back of novice owners, but jim has saved many a dog from being put down by simply observing, advising and being on the other end of the phone for as long as it takes: he is someone who really cares about what he does, and more to the point, he's a working lurcherman through and through.

 

What experienced owners don't realise in these cases is that it isn't just a case of booting the dog's arse: its all about redressing the balance of power between dog and owner, and a novice owner just doesn't have the skills/experience to do this in a way which will still allow a productive relationship between dog and man.

 

Gareth I've sent you a pm.

[lurchergrrl 1,441]

 

If you really want to solve the problem then contact a good behaviourist like Jim Greenwood who will come to your place and work with you and the dog together. Experienced owners might think that these behaviourists are just making money off the back of novice owners, but jim has saved many a dog from being put down by simply observing, advising and being on the other end of the phone for as long as it takes: he is someone who really cares about what he does, and more to the point, he's a working lurcherman through and through.

 

I second that whole heartedly Jim is ace - he knows dogs, and more importantly he knows people. He helped with a dog I fostered once - it had severe separation anxiety and it barked, constantly, for everything. Jim helped me sort that out, and within 24 hours the barking was under control. He really is excellent.

 

With regards to the food aggression: I too am not of the mind that taking a food away teaches the dog to respect you. If it feels threatened when you're near it's food it's going to kick off if it thinks you'll take it; that behaviour will just continue to escalate, ie the dog learns a growl isn't enough and so next time, he snaps. Then next time, he may bite . In fact that's probably why he reacted the way he did yesterday. What you might try do is casually walking past when he's eating and putting MORE food in his bowl, something extra good. Thus he learns that your hand near his bowl = a good thing. Start by chucking it down near the bowl with the goal being the dog will stop eating and let you put something in the bowl. I'm more interested in a dog who is willing to let me call it off it's food to me, than a dog who is happy to let me take it's food. (Jim taught me that, too)

 

And by the way, respect to you for your honest posts and your willingness to learn and do things the best way you can. It makes a refreshing change round here

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Penny - thanks for the PM.

 

I will ring you this afternoon if you are available. And I will contact Jim Greenwood. I don't think I can afford him but will see what he says and how much he charges.

 

The last thing I wanna do is have his dog put to sleep as he is good in so many ways.

 

Lurche girl - thanks for the advice. I don't see much point in lying when asking for advice or saying my dog can do this etc. I'm struggling and I think being honest is the only way forward.

 

Gaz

[skycat 6,174]

Ring me any time Gaz: I've always got my mobile on me but if I'm out with the dogs you might have to bear with me a bit. If I don't concentrate on them the young ones tend to bugger about a bit

[Gaz_1989 9,539]

Haha. No problem Penny. Thank alot.