before there time

[Guest alcapone]

How did plummer manage to write "The fell terrier" and not mention ken gould in the book? Plummer was a ratting man and nothing more,not a true terrierman.

your missing the point mate , whether it was Brian Plummer or a Corgi Registered Plummer , its the book and its contents people have commented on , say 1 thing B.P. may have been a lot of things i cant comment i never knew him but the way some people rip him to bits feckin pisses me off , the reason is because he is dead cant defend himself and put his view across, still yrs after he died you still hear people comin out and slaggin someone who cant affect there lives any more, i get EDRD and think D.H. does a splendid job but every opportunity he really turns on him , ive got too the stage now where its makin D.H. come across to me as really bitter and twisted.

cant really see what you've gained writing that? ive commented that plummer had'nt mentioned one of the greatest consistant producers of black dogs in the country in a book on the breed of the dog gould bred and worked to a high standard,then you moan about D.H???? wether he is dead or not is regardless,in my opinion ken gould has produced more foundation dogs than any other man in this country,ken gould has done for black dogs what boudreaux did for the pitbulls,producing dogs that men based their yard on. YET plummer declines to mention him in a book on the breed? give my head peace ya walt!!

[Guest alcapone]

As far as I can remember the fell terrier was the terrain the dogs the men and the latter was based on interviews.Plummer had a falling out with Gould making an interview difficult.only for the fell terrier most lads would nt have a notion about 90% of the men involved.I did nt take it to be an all inclusive book I'm sure there where more men involved than those mentioned.I still read the book occasionally but I'm convinced now that there where dogs at the time and since that where worked more than those mentioned.There's plenty of good terriermen about with high standards who's names will never be in a book.

madger i spoke to ken today,he told me he only ever met plummer once at stoneleigh jrtc show many years ago. plummer was judgeing and put a handsome dog out the ring a gentleman had with plenty of working marks on it saying they didnt want them sort of dogs at this show. ken never seen him again.

[madgerboy 11]

Fair enough lads.it would have filled a lot of blanks if he had of went through at least someone working a line direct from Gould if he could nt go to Gould himself.i suppose it would have made it a more complete book.

Just on the subject though,the older dog men I know/knew where I live worked a line of Russell which seemed to set the standard.They came from a vet called Stuarty McIver.McIver was friends with Harry Carr whom Plummer mentions in the section off "the fell terrier" on Jonny Richardson.Just as matter of interest I looked into these dogs a bit deeper and found that they came from the "Warwickshire" hunt kennels decended from 2 dogs called Blacky and Topsy.Carr and McIver where good friends Carr hunting the Dungannon Foxhounds which where mostly Fell hounds from the Blencathra hunt.According to the men I spoke to Harry Carr had leggy Lakeland types which non remember being dug but ran along with hounds.The dogs that where dug to where the whites of McIvers.What's interesting though is that Plummer says regarding the Blencathra whites that outcross blood of "a Russell type"was imported from Harry Carr of Dungannon"dogs tried and tested in Ireland for the last eighty years".As Carr didn't keep Russels and the best and most highly sought after whites where kept by his friend Stuarty McIver it's highly likely that the dogs sent to Blencathra where from the Warwickshire hunt kennels via Ireland bred and worked here for at most a few generations.The best dog from McIver which qualified at trials and was dug to many times was Patch but the line stopped with him as he was mated to many bitches but non produced a pup except a mongrel bitch which he mated.

Both men are dead but are well known names in hunting circles I'm sure if I'm wrong on any details someone can clear it up.One man I spoke to told the story of drinking in a pub one night with Harry Carr and as the lads got drunk the usual mouthing about dogs got worse and worse Carr soon cut them off by saying "the very worst of dogs in your kennel knows more about hunting than the lot of yous put together".lol

[events co-ordinator 353]

Bill (jnr) O'Donnell bought a bitch Russell pup off Brian Plummer in 1967/8 it was called Morag it was mated to Jnr's Corrie a pup was retained called Tyro it ended up with my old mans mate D. My old man had to help dig this terrier out when it ran to ground at the age of 14 on a litter of Fox cubs in a rabbit hole. This was a very hard dog as was his sire Corrie so further down the years they had to outcross as the terriers were too hard for the work involved.Jnr and my old man are still working the same line of terriers to-day well not to-day they wont be out till Saturday. The same line of terriers working the same holes with the same guys over the last 40 years cant be bad. A little extra info I used to get a phone call from Brian Plummer every Christmas day to wish me dad and mum best wishes and I cried at his funeral alongside TERRIERMEN that my dad had worked terriers with for many years not NAMES but guys who just went about their business and still do.

[tinytiger 822]

Bill (jnr) O'Donnell bought a bitch Russell pup off Brian Plummer in 1967/8 it was called Morag it was mated to Jnr's Corrie a pup was retained called Tyro it ended up with my old mans mate D. My old man had to help dig this terrier out when it ran to ground at the age of 14 on a litter of Fox cubs in a rabbit hole. This was a very hard dog as was his sire Corrie so further down the years they had to outcross as the terriers were too hard for the work involved.Jnr and my old man are still working the same line of terriers to-day well not to-day they wont be out till Saturday. The same line of terriers working the same holes with the same guys over the last 40 years cant be bad. A little extra info I used to get a phone call from Brian Plummer every Christmas day to wish me dad and mum best wishes and I cried at his funeral alongside TERRIERMEN that my dad had worked terriers with for many years not NAMES but guys who just went about their business and still do.

 

good post-do you have any pictures of your fathers terriers

[marrajack 1]

well i was sat talking to my friend at dinner and terriers came up , we got tallking about the likes of gouldy , harcomb,nuttal, a good few of them actually , but then my friend asked the question what about the terrier men before the likes of gouldy , etc , etc ...and i could not answer him....

 

 

so my question is can anyone tell me who the terriermen were before the guys that have made a name for themselves through working terriers over lets say the last 30 to 40 years ..what type of terrier they would keep wether it be russels etc, etc , i know they would have to be a good baying dogs because there were no locator systems about in those days .....

 

if there is any old black and white photo's that can be posted then that would be great , i do apologise if this has already been done before but i did look back as far as i could and could not see anything ..

 

i dont want this thread turning into a slanging match just some straight answers please , i'm not trying to get anything out this just curious ....

 

i look forward to the replys :thumbs:

 

john Cowan, the bloke has bred dogs that have influenced nearly every strain, nice bloke as well

[events co-ordinator 353]

Back in the 70s Jnr & my old man got terriers sent up from Cumbria from Ronnie Pearson & Ronnie Cook they were known as the The Two Ronnies R Pearson bred terriers with John Cowan they had some tremendous terriers. Theyve spoke about Spider of Pearsons that killed every fox it reached if the Fox did not bolt. My dad kept wee trim who lost half her tongue against a lge Lanarkshire dog fox, Tyke Spiders brother who died young of parvo. Ronnie Cook sent up Moll one of the finest looking Lakeland bitches dad had seen he says it was

sister to Cyril Tysons Mocky and was a decent worker as well as a superb show bitch.We also used R Cooks Russell Grip over one of our bitches Cher this was the line Jnr's Ross came from Grip worked with the Melbrek. I will get some of the old foties from Jnr as R cook was on the phone last week so I know Jnr is looking them out.I forgot to say all the terriers were sent up to be worked all winter and went back down for the shows in summer they also sent youngsters up to be entered but thats another story.YIS

[phantomflanflinger 24]

TERRIER MEN ,A GREATLEY OVER USED TITLE there's men who work and breed terriers to work and

then there are people who own terriers , , writing a book make you a terrier man,

plummers book is readable he started a breed a terrier man , half the names in his

book were acredited with the title terrier men did plummer walk with the packs , run charlie

to ground sit a watch these men dig to the terriers , were was pritch blands mention , and a host

of other men worth the name , the men of north wales , lancashire,

 

,

[byron 1,094]

The reason plummers name was mentioned was because he wrote a very good book on the topic being discussed

if people are talkin about and wanting information on "terriers & terrier men" then plummers name must be mentioned , not for his work with terriers but for his work gathering information on certain terriermen, his book should be applauded for the information in it , if you dont like the bloke fair enough (never knew him to have an oppinion on him) but dont knock the book because you dont like the authour .

[madgerboy 11]

Pritch Blands names was mentioned in the book I'm near sure.

[Mosby 355]

That badger/butcher story would make a great movie for the cause of working terriers. Great story. i think the hunts would have the best records of who's who with what's what. Some of the names you mentioned have been hunting than many have been alive. Don't think us younguns can tell much of what we didn't live.

[herdwick 52]

A bit of research is all thats needed to find some stories concerning terriers.

 

http://www.cumbrian-lad.com/Brait.htm

 

Some songs concerning terriers as well

 

http://www.cumbrian-lad.com/TerrierSongs.htm

Edited November 4, 2010 by herdwick

[Country Joe 1,411]

My memory not so good but years ago I asked Bill Brightmore why he wasn't in the Fell terrier book, I am sure he told me they had a row, cant remember how it went, but he did not have a good thing to say about the Man,

I still think Bill should have been in the book.

[Waz 4,226]

If you like reading about terriers and terriermen from the past, a great book IMO is Lucas' Hunt and worrking terriers. Written in the 20's so it is going back a bit.

 

As an aside, just think some of the recent books that have been written on working terriers will still be around like this book, 90 years later! I wonder what the keeper of the working terrier will think when they read some of these books?

[Mosby 355]

I've heard of the lucas book. I'd really like to get my hands on a copy.