ScotHunter

[scothunter 12,609]

i can see it happening here myself

 

where i can buy a tiger cub lol

[Ideation 8,216]

If you are really interested go and speak to people there on all sides before making an opinion.

[Ideation 8,216]

I would also recommed Rebecca Wests 'Black Lamb and Grey Falcon: A journey through Yogoslavia' - a great read an incredibly informative about the entire history of Yogoslavia. . . .pretty unbiased also.

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

thanks fell really enjoyed watching them ,even with the usual biased bbc take on it.cant fault the serbs for wanting to defend their rights.certainly not as clear cut as the west made it out tobe saying its all the serbs fault.I do think there was a lot of underhanded dealings on both sides and a lot of personal polital gains going on,but i have always sympathised with serbs,and before the lefties attack me yea i think the killings of civillians was trully horrific but as previously stated both sides were at it.was a powder keg waiting to explode and the west fuelled the fires in a lot of aspects.i would be exactly the same if i was getting forced out of my home and the country i was born in.I also think it will flare up again at some point.

 

No problem mate, initially The Serbs were defending against aggression, they didn't kick the war off. And if you look back in the history in that region, you could understand why the minority Serbs in Croatia would be frightened of the nationalist Croatians after what had happened to them 40 - 50 years before .

 

I've got a link for another doc that's even better IMO. It lasts for about 3 hours over 2 parts. It goes more in depth and highlights more of the problems the Serb civilians had to endure throughout the troubles there. It features all kinds of people and is quite surprising and shocking what they explain -

 

Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War Part 1

 

Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War Part 2

 

i can see it happening here myself

 

I think much the same mate. It may take a few years yet, but I think it's inevitable if things carry on the way they are going. Even if it doesn't happen in our lifetime I'd hate for my people to have to go through something like that.

 

I would also recommed Rebecca Wests 'Black Lamb and Grey Falcon: A journey through Yogoslavia' - a great read an incredibly informative about the entire history of Yogoslavia. . . .pretty unbiased also.

 

You ever gave Islamic Declaration a read by Alija Izetbegović? I'm yet to read it myself but wondered if you had seeing as you're recommending books to read?

Edited August 23, 2010 by Attack Fell Terrier

[scothunter 12,609]

yea ill watch them fell.better than the shite they put on that telly these days.cheers again.

[Ideation 8,216]

thanks fell really enjoyed watching them ,even with the usual biased bbc take on it.cant fault the serbs for wanting to defend their rights.certainly not as clear cut as the west made it out tobe saying its all the serbs fault.I do think there was a lot of underhanded dealings on both sides and a lot of personal polital gains going on,but i have always sympathised with serbs,and before the lefties attack me yea i think the killings of civillians was trully horrific but as previously stated both sides were at it.was a powder keg waiting to explode and the west fuelled the fires in a lot of aspects.i would be exactly the same if i was getting forced out of my home and the country i was born in.I also think it will flare up again at some point.

 

No problem mate, initially The Serbs were defending against aggression, they didn't kick the war off. And if you look back in the history in that region, you could understand why the minority Serbs in Croatia would be frightened of the nationalist Croatians after what had happened to them 40 - 50 years before .

 

I've got a link for another doc that's even better IMO. It lasts for about 3 hours over 2 parts. It goes more in depth and highlights more of the problems the Serb civilians had to endure throughout the troubles there. It features all kinds of people and is quite surprising and shocking what they explain -

 

Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War Part 1

 

Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War Part 2

 

i can see it happening here myself

 

I think much the same mate. It may take a few years yet, but I think it's inevitable if things carry on the way they are going. Even if it doesn't happen in our lifetime I'd hate for my people to have to go through something like that.

 

I would also recommed Rebecca Wests 'Black Lamb and Grey Falcon: A journey through Yogoslavia' - a great read an incredibly informative about the entire history of Yogoslavia. . . .pretty unbiased also.

 

You ever gave Islamic Declaration a read by Alija Izetbegović? I'm yet to read it myself but wondered if you had seeing as you're recommending books to read?

 

 

Yes i have. . .. at least parts of it i think i have it here somewhere. He bigs up Japan, hits out at Attaturk, all in all it's a fairly interesting but slightly strange book. He got slammed for it tho, but that was pretty unfair as i dont think he ever really suggests that Bosnia become a muslim state.

 

Where are you getting your info from? I know what your saying about the serbs being scapegoated and that they suffered hugely in the conflict, especially at the hands of the croats. However the Bosniaks did suffer very badly with something like % of the civilian casualties being Bosnian (and that DOES NOT make them muslim) and something like 60 % of over all deaths being Bosniak in comparison to the 25% Serbian. The main reason for this was that when Yugo broke up most of the army and arms were concentrated in Beograd. The tide of war only began to turn when the Iranians started to ferry in weapons. Something like 30 % of the Bosniak deaths were women and children and something like 30,000 women were systematically raped.

 

I went into the area with an open mind shortly after the war officially ended, and have stayed up all night drinking with war criminals from all sides . . . . . . and i'd still fight on the Bosniak side if it happened again and i had to make a choice.

[Ideation 8,216]

and i take it you know about the Karađorđevo agreement?

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

Yes i have. . .. at least parts of it i think i have it here somewhere. He bigs up Japan, hits out at Attaturk, all in all it's a fairly interesting but slightly strange book. He got slammed for it tho, but that was pretty unfair as i dont think he ever really suggests that Bosnia become a muslim state.

 

Did you not read the bit where he says -

 

"There can be neither peace nor co-existence between the Islamic religion and the non Islamic social and political institutions"

 

Apparently that's something he wrote in that book.

 

Where are you getting your info from? I know what your saying about the serbs being scapegoated and that they suffered hugely in the conflict, especially at the hands of the croats. However the Bosniaks did suffer very badly with something like % of the civilian casualties being Bosnian (and that DOES NOT make them muslim) and something like 60 % of over all deaths being Bosniak in comparison to the 25% Serbian. The main reason for this was that when Yugo broke up most of the army and arms were concentrated in Beograd. The tide of war only began to turn when the Iranians started to ferry in weapons. Something like 30 % of the Bosniak deaths were women and children and something like 30,000 women were systematically raped.

 

I went into the area with an open mind shortly after the war officially ended, and have stayed up all night drinking with war criminals from all sides . . . . . . and i'd still fight on the Bosniak side if it happened again and i had to make a choice.

 

I get what info I can from where ever I can to be honest, it's a mish mash of different things (documentaries, stuff from websites etc). I've always had an interest in this War(s) but I've recently been looking back for some of the documentaries that I seen a few years back on the web, and found some of them. It's been real interesting.

 

I can't remember exact figures but there was a great deal of lies and false information being banded about as to how many Bosniaks died during that war, by the Bosniaks. Some people were willing to take their word for it, others who conducted investigations knew otherwise. They were claiming that so many men were missing and presumed dead, yet they were found fighting in other regions and were not missing at all. They said that X amount of civilian men were executed, yet when the graves were dug up each man was of fighting age, and had the sort of wounds you'd see on men that had died in combat rather than the sort of wounds you'd see from an unarmed man being executed, and to top all of that off they even bombed their own people then rushed in the Western media making out it was the Serbs attacking their civilians just to bolster support for THEIR cause and to keep the war going so they could try and push for a Bosniak ruled Bosnia, where they really had no right to do that.

 

That's not to say the other parties are innocent of any wrong doing, I think terrible crimes were committed by all sides. I just don't believe the most were carried out by Serbs and certainly wasn't ordered by Milosevic himself.

 

and i take it you know about the Karađorđevo agreement?

 

There's so many details about this war that it's hard to remember them all, If you'd be so kind as to remind/educate me on the Karađorđevo agreement I'd be extremely grateful.

 

PS. I know we're bound to have different views on this, but I would like to keep it clean and with out insults so we can actually enjoy a debate that doesn't end up erupting just like these wars did in Yugoslavia.

[Ideation 8,216]

Yes i have. . .. at least parts of it i think i have it here somewhere. He bigs up Japan, hits out at Attaturk, all in all it's a fairly interesting but slightly strange book. He got slammed for it tho, but that was pretty unfair as i dont think he ever really suggests that Bosnia become a muslim state.

 

Did you not read the bit where he says -

 

"There can be neither peace nor co-existence between the Islamic religion and the non Islamic social and political institutions"

 

Apparently that's something he wrote in that book.

 

Where are you getting your info from? I know what your saying about the serbs being scapegoated and that they suffered hugely in the conflict, especially at the hands of the croats. However the Bosniaks did suffer very badly with something like % of the civilian casualties being Bosnian (and that DOES NOT make them muslim) and something like 60 % of over all deaths being Bosniak in comparison to the 25% Serbian. The main reason for this was that when Yugo broke up most of the army and arms were concentrated in Beograd. The tide of war only began to turn when the Iranians started to ferry in weapons. Something like 30 % of the Bosniak deaths were women and children and something like 30,000 women were systematically raped.

 

I went into the area with an open mind shortly after the war officially ended, and have stayed up all night drinking with war criminals from all sides . . . . . . and i'd still fight on the Bosniak side if it happened again and i had to make a choice.

 

I get what info I can from where ever I can to be honest, it's a mish mash of different things (documentaries, stuff from websites etc). I've always had an interest in this War(s) but I've recently been looking back for some of the documentaries that I seen a few years back on the web, and found some of them. It's been real interesting.

 

I can't remember exact figures but there was a great deal of lies and false information being banded about as to how many Bosniaks died during that war, by the Bosniaks. Some people were willing to take their word for it, others who conducted investigations knew otherwise. They were claiming that so many men were missing and presumed dead, yet they were found fighting in other regions and were not missing at all. They said that X amount of civilian men were executed, yet when the graves were dug up each man was of fighting age, and had the sort of wounds you'd see on men that had died in combat rather than the sort of wounds you'd see from an unarmed man being executed, and to top all of that off they even bombed their own people then rushed in the Western media making out it was the Serbs attacking their civilians just to bolster support for THEIR cause and to keep the war going so they could try and push for a Bosniak ruled Bosnia, where they really had no right to do that.

 

That's not to say the other parties are innocent of any wrong doing, I think terrible crimes were committed by all sides. I just don't believe the most were carried out by Serbs and certainly wasn't ordered by Milosevic himself.

 

and i take it you know about the Karađorđevo agreement?

 

There's so many details about this war that it's hard to remember them all, If you'd be so kind as to remind/educate me on the Karađorđevo agreement I'd be extremely grateful.

 

PS. I know we're bound to have different views on this, but I would like to keep it clean and with out insults so we can actually enjoy a debate that doesn't end up erupting just like these wars did in Yugoslavia.

 

I'm off to work so will reply properly later, but the Karadordevo agreement was a series of meeting which began early in 1991 between Serbian and Croat leaders, it discussed the division of Bosnia Herzegovina between Serbia and Croatia. The Bosnian/Bosniak authorities/leaders were not invited or informed of the meeting which basicly ran like this 'empty bosnia and divide it between us?. . . . sounds good!'.

 

Although you are right there was a degree of misinformation during the war, i also believe there has been a lot of misinformation after the fact put about by serbian and croat authorities, to try to make it seem more like a war and less like a genocide. At the end of the day Bosnia got attacked and invaded as such, based on a nationalist ideal to create a unified, pure serbian homeland, during most of the war the serbian and croat forces had such superior force of arms that they were on the attack and carrying out most of the atrocities committed on a large scale. However when the tide turned at the end of the war the Bosniaks obviously siezed the chance for some revenge. However, most atrocities committed against Serbian peoples were at the hands of the Croats. Those carried out by Muslim/Bosniaks were mainly perpetrated by outside forces 'muhajudeen' who came into Bosnia to try to 'help', but were recieved by the Bosniaks with a very mixed reception, many believeing they just came to stir.

 

I've spent a lot of time talking to villagers and townsfolk through out the region and it's just fact that a concentrated process of ethnic cleansing was carried out throughout the Bosnia, targeted at 'muslims' who the serbs believed they needed to remove to create their idealised homeland. Fact is that most of those being attacked had never set foot in a mosque and ended up fighting a defensive battle rather than one based upon any kind of aggressive ideal, the actions of Kradzic during the war, such as filling the hills around Sarajevo with marksman that preyed on womman and children everytime they went out to try to get bred . . . . can't really be misunderstood.

 

Yer i think that is in his book, but i'm still not sure he really suggests that Bosnia become a 'muslim state', he was a young pan-islamist and a radical, but later mellowed out a fair bit, and it was only his opinion which i dont think is correct or shared with the majority in the area at the time.

 

And yes no insults. It's just a very emotive subject. I really suggest you go there and hear peoples stories. It makes your heart weep.

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

I'm off to work so will reply properly later, but the Karadordevo agreement was a series of meeting which began early in 1991 between Serbian and Croat leaders, it discussed the division of Bosnia Herzegovina between Serbia and Croatia. The Bosnian/Bosniak authorities/leaders were not invited or informed of the meeting which basicly ran like this 'empty bosnia and divide it between us?. . . . sounds good!'.

 

Cheers, Now you have explained it I remember seeing/reading something about that, but I didn't know it was a series of meetings I thought they met once, and I knew they were talking of separating Bosnia between them but didn't know that they were looking to "Empty Bosnia of Bosniaks" in the process.

 

Ethnically I thought that Bosniaks were the same as the Serbs, just that they were the people that kept the Islamic faith that had been enforced on them by the Ottomans. So in other words Bosnia was originally Slav/Serb land to start with?

 

I'd like to look into that a little more, but thanks for bringing it up.

 

Although you are right there was a degree of misinformation during the war, i also believe there has been a lot of misinformation after the fact put about by serbian and croat authorities, to try to make it seem more like a war and less like a genocide.

 

But the information I have seen hasn't come from Serbian people, it's come from Nato officials, UN forces that were there at the time, British, American officials and those in the know.

 

At the end of the day Bosnia got attacked and invaded as such, based on a nationalist ideal to create a unified, pure serbian homeland, during most of the war the serbian and croat forces had such superior force of arms that they were on the attack and carrying out most of the atrocities committed on a large scale.

 

They couldn't just allow Bosnia to part from them illegally that easily and in an aggressive way though. Remember by international law Bosnia should still not of even been recognized as it's own state around this time. Yugoslavia was an internationally recognised state with it's boundaries which included Bosnia. There was talks between the Serbs and the Bosniaks about sharing power in that region under a new Yugoslavia but when Izetbegovic piped up and threw in his tupence worth he messed up the plans because of his Nationalistic idea's of a Muslim RUN state in Europe (Bosnia).

 

I'm lead to believe that around 40% of Bosnia's people were Bosniaks, 30 odd% Serbs, around 15% were Croats. That's a lot of Serb people to just leave in the lurch and allow to be butchered and dispelled from Bosnia by both Bosniaks and Croats.

 

So I don't agree that it was an invasion as such.

 

However when the tide turned at the end of the war the Bosniaks obviously siezed the chance for some revenge. However, most atrocities committed against Serbian peoples were at the hands of the Croats. Those carried out by Muslim/Bosniaks were mainly perpetrated by outside forces 'muhajudeen' who came into Bosnia to try to 'help', but were recieved by the Bosniaks with a very mixed reception, many believeing they just came to stir.

 

But the same can be said for the war crimes that the Serb army were blamed for. I believe that the vast majority of the Bosniak civilians killed by Serb's were committed by Para Millitary forces that were out of control, Who were also hell bent on revenge after having endured all manner of savagery at the hands of Bosniaks and Croats.

 

I've spent a lot of time talking to villagers and townsfolk through out the region and it's just fact that a concentrated process of ethnic cleansing was carried out throughout the Bosnia, targeted at 'muslims' who the serbs believed they needed to remove to create their idealised homeland. Fact is that most of those being attacked had never set foot in a mosque and ended up fighting a defensive battle rather than one based upon any kind of aggressive ideal, the actions of Kradzic during the war, such as filling the hills around Sarajevo with marksman that preyed on womman and children everytime they went out to try to get bred . . . . can't really be misunderstood.

 

Sorry I can't believe Karadzic done that without seeing hard evidence to back it up, I'm not saying that it didn't happen but it's a pretty bold claim to say Karadzic ordered his Snipers to kill women and children.

 

And I also believe that it was Izetbegovic that had the idealistic image of a Bosniak run Bosnia! (as I said above) It was him with the ideals of seizing power over a Christian region and turning it into an Islamic state with in Europe, and a war would be the best bet to give him that.

 

As for the Bosniak Muslim people, I do believe what you say about most of them! I've seen interviews with Serbs that said exactly the same things before the real troubles kicked off. That most they knew were nice people! I think a lot of the young Muslim Bosniaks thought they were fighting for their freedom against aggressors, but I don't think they really knew what Izetbegovic was up to during that time. He was a liar and deceived A LOT of people including his own.

 

ZulfikarpaÅ¡ić on the other hand I do believe was looking for peace. A more liberal Bosniak Muslim who tried to negotiate a deal with the Serbs to suite everyone in Bosnia under a new Yugoslavia, yet Izetbegovic put the blockers on that apparently calling ZulfikarpaÅ¡ić a "Sell out". The Violence then commenced.

 

ICTY were investigating Izetbegovic and were looking to bring him up in the Hague for war crimes, but Izetbegovic died so obviously they scrapped the proceedings.

 

Yer i think that is in his book, but i'm still not sure he really suggests that Bosnia become a 'muslim state', he was a young pan-islamist and a radical, but later mellowed out a fair bit, and it was only his opinion which i dont think is correct or shared with the majority in the area at the time.

 

The thing is I personally can't believe that he mellowed out, from what I've seen/read about him, and how he carried on during the war, My opinion of him was that he was every bit the radical Muslim, who had ties to other radical Islamic fundamentalists.

 

The majority of his people I don't think would of shared his radical opinion, I seriously believe that. But with the blood shed he encourage who else were they going to believe and follow?

 

And yes no insults. It's just a very emotive subject. I really suggest you go there and hear peoples stories. It makes your heart weep.

 

[rock 64]

heres a book for you attack mate to read English wittness(to their darkest hour) by p scrivener published by steadfast & athelny

[Cajunrules 8]

Milosevic and Markovic: The End of the Serbian Fairytale by Slavoljub Djukic is a worthwhile read too if you've not already read it. Not wholly about the war, more about Milosevic's political career and background but would recommend it.

[Attack Fell Terrier 864]

Cheers gents.

[scothunter 12,609]

not sure Karadzic would openly order the shooting of woman and kids,not saying it didnt happen as i have seen footage of civilians being shot in a market square by snipers.think with all the unrest and confusion that was going on a lot did not stick to the rules of war.

 

i would say dont get mixed up with the regualar serbian army and those of the parlamilitaries.arkan would have done that in a heart beat with no second thoughts.i remember an american journalist wormed his way into the tigers with the ploy of reporting in a non biased way.he was closely monitored,but the tigers entered a village and started rounding people up and the reporter got pics of arkans men kicking the shit out of some guy in the street.he smugged the pics out and a week later they were circulated round the globe.arkan said if he ever set foot in serbia again he would rip his heart and eat it.something tells me he wasnt joking far from it.

[steveS.Yorks 161]

I oncesaw Milosevic being interviewed,when asked why this war was happening he said,

 

"This is our country,we are a democracy,our people only have on average 2 children,the muslims out breed us 3 to one and are going to take our country over"

 

Now i know thats a simplistic view of the situation but it rings true for a lot of countries now being invaded by muslims,democratic systems arent very muslim breeding proof,my town is already doomed.

 

At least the Serbs had the balls to stand up for their own rights,unlike us.