Bacterial contamination in dog feed

[dhard 0]

Keep the meat frozen and only thaw out what is needed for that day. As if it is frozen whatever bacteria that may or may not be present will be killed. I personally would be more concerned about what is in the kibble as if you search the net close enough you will find there has been numerous issues that have been linked to various brands. Might be the reason why so many dogs seem to present with skin problems and the rise in cancer issues since the proliferation of dry foods. In many cases the exact makeup of which is a little unclear and most certainly contains things that are merely fillers and have no nutritional value whatsoever. I doubt that there can be any real increase in human contamination whether the dog is fed a raw diet or not. In fact there has been direct links drawn to the fact that kids with either a dog or cat present in the house have a greater immunity levels to those who don't. Of all my wife's friends the ones that live in a antibacterial obssessed household where every thing is disinfected religously they are the ones who are always sick. The ones that roll around in the dirt and mud hardly ever get sick. So it is with a certain degree of skeptism that i view bacterial level samples brought up by some Scientists especially when there is such big money to be made in the making of dog kibble. The price of which for a quality brand is way over the top.

[sandymere 8,261]

First let me restate this is not an anti raw feeding post, I feed raw meat and bones regularly but rather one to highlight a risk linked to this practice.

 

 

Thanks for your reply Stabba, your post demonstrates that the risks are real rather than potential. In truth it wasn’t so much the direct risk ie handling the meat I was highlighting, hopefully everyone is aware of this, but the risks from contact with the dog after it eating infected meat that I wished to bring to note. You don’t need to take my word for it take a copy of the above paper to your GP or Practice nurse, explain to them that the dog gets it’s front end liberally smeared with the meal and ask them if there is a potential risk to a child coming into contact with that dog. I think you know the reply you will get.

The carnivores bit is debatable, a dog is biologically designed for an omnivores diet, but I feed a proportion of meat and bone as I feel that they do better with it and there’s plenty of evidence to support that notion. (if anyone mentions big teeth I’ll laugh).

 

Paulus I’ve fed dogs for 40 yrs and also have never had a problem but it doesn’t mean there hasn’t been or continues to be a risk, I’ve crossed the road for nearly 50yrs but it doesn’t mean I can’t get run over. It’s a matter of publicising the risk to allow people to make an informed choice rather than denying its existence as some would like to. What variables are you suggesting in your post? I would disagree and say of cause a conclusion can be made and that is that there is a risk, to deny that is hard to justify, I agree that the extent of the risk is debatable but the fact of its presence undeniable. There are different types of bacteria, viruses etc and and exposure to minor bacteria is part of life and plays a role in building an immune system but some bacteria such as E coli can kill so it’s not one to be taken lightly.

 

Dhard sorry but freezing doesn’t kill the bacteria!

You mention an increase in cancer and skin problems I would be interested in where that comes from as I’ve often heard these tales but haven’t found any real evidence beyond what would be expected so can you please forward your source thanks.

There is as I say a risk with all pet food but it would seem increased with pet quality meat unless it’s cooked which could be an option for those with young children who want to be careful, the usual warnings about the risk of cooked bones.

 

Skelly, I did read and the more I read the more silly rubbish I there was, please continue to post based on that rubbish and I will continue to base my posts on 40 years of dog feeding backed up with a little sensible science.

 

Regards Sandymere

[skellyb 8]

First let me restate this is not an anti raw feeding post, I feed raw meat and bones regularly but rather one to highlight a risk linked to this practice.

 

 

Thanks for your reply Stabba, your post demonstrates that the risks are real rather than potential. In truth it wasnt so much the direct risk ie handling the meat I was highlighting, hopefully everyone is aware of this, but the risks from contact with the dog after it eating infected meat that I wished to bring to note. You dont need to take my word for it take a copy of the above paper to your GP or Practice nurse, explain to them that the dog gets its front end liberally smeared with the meal and ask them if there is a potential risk to a child coming into contact with that dog. I think you know the reply you will get.

The carnivores bit is debatable, a dog is biologically designed for an omnivores diet, but I feed a proportion of meat and bone as I feel that they do better with it and theres plenty of evidence to support that notion. (if anyone mentions big teeth Ill laugh).

 

Paulus Ive fed dogs for 40 yrs and also have never had a problem but it doesnt mean there hasnt been or continues to be a risk, Ive crossed the road for nearly 50yrs but it doesnt mean I cant get run over. Its a matter of publicising the risk to allow people to make an informed choice rather than denying its existence as some would like to. What variables are you suggesting in your post? I would disagree and say of cause a conclusion can be made and that is that there is a risk, to deny that is hard to justify, I agree that the extent of the risk is debatable but the fact of its presence undeniable. There are different types of bacteria, viruses etc and and exposure to minor bacteria is part of life and plays a role in building an immune system but some bacteria such as E coli can kill so its not one to be taken lightly.

 

Dhard sorry but freezing doesnt kill the bacteria!

You mention an increase in cancer and skin problems I would be interested in where that comes from as Ive often heard these tales but havent found any real evidence beyond what would be expected so can you please forward your source thanks.

There is as I say a risk with all pet food but it would seem increased with pet quality meat unless its cooked which could be an option for those with young children who want to be careful, the usual warnings about the risk of cooked bones.

 

Skelly, I did read and the more I read the more silly rubbish I there was, please continue to post based on that rubbish and I will continue to base my posts on 40 years of dog feeding backed up with a little sensible science.

 

Regards Sandymere

 

So this is also rubbish

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5744a2.htm

No ifs, no buts,no maybe's, no coulds, but actual cases of salmonella caused by guess what

dry "food"

And of course the dangers of mycotoxins to your dogs when feeding dry "food"

 

Re sensible science, when you can show some peer reviewed double blind long term tests then you might be able to quote something that is valid. Until then you are in the same boat as the raw food camp, no such feckin thing.

 

As for experience, its something we all have and as I have said on previous posts mine leads me well away from dry "food" in any shape or form.

I do not base anything I post on "rubbish" unless of course it is in response to another of your posts.

As you are so concerned about bacteria etc I hope that you are cleaning your keyboard on a daily basis

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-563110/How-keyboard-FIVE-TIMES-dirtier-toilet-seat--qwerty-tummy.html

Edited April 6, 2010 by skellyb

[shadowfax 0]

Is my pup too young to start on some raw chicken wings?

 

5 months????

 

Bought some the other day and dumped them in the freezer as her baby canines are just falling out. I'll probably start giving her a couple a week and see how she gets on.

[paulus 26]

the variables im talking about are you can not base a result on wether or not a dog showed more or less signs of bacteria just by feeding one group raw and the other not. all the variables not to mention the interactions between these variables are not accounted for. ie if one of the group was less well than the others then the results are biased or if one had never been fed raw before the results are again biased and so on and so on. so whot i am saying is unless the trial was conducted knowing all the pure factors and all the interactions these pure factors are likly to cause, then the results carnt be trusted. a pen can kill does not mean we should all stop using one.

Edited April 6, 2010 by paulus

[paulus 26]

Is my pup too young to start on some raw chicken wings?

 

5 months????

 

Bought some the other day and dumped them in the freezer as her baby canines are just falling out. I'll probably start giving her a couple a week and see how she gets on.

 

 

my last litter of lurcher pups were eating minced chicken and tripe at 3 to 4 weeks

[sandymere 8,261]

Is my pup too young to start on some raw chicken wings?

 

5 months????

 

Bought some the other day and dumped them in the freezer as her baby canines are just falling out. I'll probably start giving her a couple a week and see how she gets on.

 

Five months should have no problem. I'll add a little qualifying statement below, but I've fed raw meat to younger dogs without there being a problem if it's part of a balenced diet .

 

I feed raw meat and bones to my lurchers but do so with an understanding that this carries a number of risks to both the dogs and humans that come into contact with them, there are 3 main points;

1 The types and amounts of bacteria associated with pet quality meat will result in the dog itself and it daily surroundings carrying a risk of dangerous cross infection to people in general but especially children.

2 The bacteria produce harmful poisons and the bacteria themselves damage the intestinal lining possibly resulting in low grade chronic inflammation and may cross into the body to become a serious acute illness needing veterinary treatment.

2 Bones, even if fed raw, can and have caused injury and even death to many dogs.

[sandymere 8,261]

the variables im talking about are you can not base a result on wether or not a dog showed more or less signs of bacteria just by feeding one group raw and the other not. all the variables not to mention the interactions between these variables are not accounted for. ie if one of the group was less well than the others then the results are biased or if one had never been fed raw before the results are again biased and so on and so on. so whot i am saying is unless the trial was conducted knowing all the pure factors and all the interactions these pure factors are likly to cause, then the results carnt be trusted. a pen can kill does not mean we should all stop using one.

The whole idea was to compare the two so you need to compare in this sort of trail.

A few others;

I1. Lejeune TJ, Hancock DD. Public Health Concerns Associated with Feeding Raw Meat Diets to Dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;219(9):1222-1225

 

 

2. Joffe DJ, Schlesinger DP. Preliminary Assessment of the Risk of Salmonella Infection in Dogs Fed Raw Chicken Diets. Can Vet J 2002;43(6):441-2 CVJ Jun 2002)

 

 

3. Murphy C, et al, ACVIM abstr 2005)

 

 

4. Weese JS, Rousseau J, Arroyo L. Bacterial Evaluation of Commercial Canine and Feline Raw Diets. Can Vet J 2005;46(6):513-516.

 

 

5. Finley R, Reid-Smith R, Weese JS. Human Health Implications of Salmonella-Contaminated Natural Pet Treats and Raw Pet Food. Clin Infect Dis 2006;42(5):686-91

 

 

6. Finley R, Ribble C, Aramini J, Vandermeer M, Popa M, Littman M, Reid-Smith R. The risk of salmonellae shedding by dogs fed Salmonella-contaminated commercial raw food diets. Can Vet J. Accepted for publication.

 

 

7. Finley RL. Salmonella in commercially available pig ear treats and raw food diets: prevalence survey and canine feeding trial. [MSc. Thesis]. Guelph, Ontario. University of Guelph, 2004.

 

 

8. Strohmeyer RA, Morley SP, Hyatt DR, Dargatz DA, Scorza AV, Lappin MR. Evaluation of Bacterial and Protozoal Contamination of Commercially Available Raw Meat Diets for Dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2006; 228 (4) 537-542.

[sandymere 8,261]

A special reply for skelly (very large sigh) when i taught you to quote rather than make up stuff I thought we had made a break through but you seen to have missed the idea, you should quote the bit you disagree with and then put an alternative not just quote the whole post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or large sections and then rabbit on about something completely different unless you disagree with the whole post in which case your deeper in psuedo science land than I thought.

 

Now to your reply.

No one is denying that there is a risk with other foods it all about degree of risk.

http://www.doaj.org/doaj?func=abstract&id=315083&recNo=15&toc=1

I suppose this is rubbish to lol.

[skellyb 8]

Sandymere, the only thing you have managed to teach me is what a pompous, egocentric old fool you are.

I leave you to find someone else to mastur"bait" with.

[sandymere 8,261]

Sandymere, the only thing you have managed to teach me is what a pompous, egocentric old fool you are.

I leave you to find someone else to mastur"bait" with.

lolol.

[paulus 26]

quoting loads of trials dont mean alot it has not been confirmed that they have been conducted and analysed correctly. as i keep saying. try reading work by genichi taguchi a good book to get you started is called introduction to quality engineering. then move on to the two volumes of system for experimental design. at a guess the trials promoting dry were conducted or funded by the dry food manufactures and visa versa for the the raw. wild and captive animals eat raw flesh a have done for ever, its usually some other factor that causes problems.

[shadowfax 0]

Is my pup too young to start on some raw chicken wings?

 

5 months????

 

Bought some the other day and dumped them in the freezer as her baby canines are just falling out. I'll probably start giving her a couple a week and see how she gets on.

 

Five months should have no problem. I'll add a little qualifying statement below, but I've fed raw meat to younger dogs without there being a problem if it's part of a balenced diet .

 

I feed raw meat and bones to my lurchers but do so with an understanding that this carries a number of risks to both the dogs and humans that come into contact with them, there are 3 main points;

1 The types and amounts of bacteria associated with pet quality meat will result in the dog itself and it daily surroundings carrying a risk of dangerous cross infection to people in general but especially children.

2 The bacteria produce harmful poisons and the bacteria themselves damage the intestinal lining possibly resulting in low grade chronic inflammation and may cross into the body to become a serious acute illness needing veterinary treatment.

2 Bones, even if fed raw, can and have caused injury and even death to many dogs.

Just gave her one chicken wing after her evening walk. I gave to her straight out of the freezer. Took her about an hour to eat one frozen chicken wing, lol. She enjoyed it though.

 

I'll let you know if I or anyone in the family drops down dead.

[sandymere 8,261]

quoting loads of trials dont mean alot it has not been confirmed that they have been conducted and analysed correctly. as i keep saying. try reading work by genichi taguchi a good book to get you started is called introduction to quality engineering. then move on to the two volumes of system for experimental design. at a guess the trials promoting dry were conducted or funded by the dry food manufactures and visa versa for the the raw. wild and captive animals eat raw flesh a have done for ever, its usually some other factor that causes problems.

Lordy, this idea that all the research is biased is just silly, do you really think that all the main vets governing bodies around the world are so easily led.

It's not the raw meat thats the problem but the modern storage/manufacturing process that introduces and promotes the bacterial growth within it, cooking/drying reduces bacterial growth hence the reduced amounts in completes I don't see that as needing study.

Why would I want to look at an engineering books when I've been using/critiquing biological studies for a number of years.

Regards, a slightly bored, Sandymere

[stabba 10,745]

The upshot is.. always feed your dogs the freshest possible meat available.. clean all eating ..drinking bowls daily and never forget to wash your hands after handlin raw meat.. the chances are you will never suffer ill effects but its allways better to be safe than sorry ..atb stabba