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What need to be remembered is that the tit who killed PD Deer was not a poacher, he was running captive park deer and therefore a thief.

Captive deer cannot be poached and anyone who goes and kills park deer , that cannot escape, will get the book thrown at them........JD

well JD all the news papers seem to call poachers THIEFS

if caught and convicted ,especialy when it comes to phesants and other wild game ,the people that own most deer parks are stealing deer ,so what is the difference :hmm:

 

 

What are you on about?....

Its impossible to "steal" wild game.......

 

and how have the people who own deer parks stole deer??

 

I would truly love to know how the Duke of Bedford stole his Pere David's!! :clapper:

 

great fun this internet malarky!!! :clapper:

then why do a lot of convictions include theft ,because the game was taken on some one elses ground ,i should know i was convicted of theft of wild salmon so has hundreds if not thousands of others ,its all the same ,and i will now educate you on how deer parks steel deer [and there was me thinking you knew most things when it comes to this game ]most deer parks have what is known as deer leaps ,[i hope you know what they are ]they are suposed to be used to entice any escapes back into the park ,well wild deer are enticed in as well ,and that is theft ,because the owners just keep them ,i dont know if the duke has a deer leap but i bet he does ,every deer park i used to have fun in had one ,and i walked about a lot of parks in my younger days ,and was proud to be called a thief when it came to running deer ,you could have called me any thing you liked ,as long as i was doing what i loved ,only wish i was a bit younger and quicker ,i would probibly still be anoying some owner of a park some where , :thumbs:

:clapper::clapper: watch it you will get banned taking the piss out of the great jd!!! just found this thought it was worth posting....... THE MEDIEVAL DEER PARK – By Jenny Burt

 

Northamptonshire Gardens Trust - June, 1999.

 

A synopsis of a lecture by Tony Squires, a landscape historian, and member of the Leicestershire and Rutland Gardens Trust, on the subject of the Medieval Deer Park.

 

The concept of the deer park was introduced by the Normans and formed an integral part of the manorial system, playing a major role in the economy and indeed the leisure pursuits of the Lord of the Manor. In Midland areas, the Manorial estate was practically self-sufficient, the land had to provide arable, meadows and woodland, and deer parks were formed only on those estates of the very rich, nobility and the great clerics, who spent much of their time hunting. Land of poor fertility was utilised, and no parks are to be found in areas of high production. The Earl of Cornwall had 21 parks spread over the country whilst the Bishop of Durham had 13.

 

The deer parks were often at some distance from the manor house and might have a small hunting lodge either within or on their boundaries. (At Drayton, Northamptonshire, the old deer park was actually in the parish of Slipton). Tony pointed out that Northamptonshire was covered in vast tracts of woodland, much of which has continued almost to the present day, for example Rockingham, Salcey and Whittlewood forests. These forests were originally the preserve of the King and were governed by Forest Law, much resented by the nobility, and the red, roe and fallow deer and the boar were hunted by the King, the Huntsman's role being to lead the King and his lords towards the quarry.

 

Not all of the forest was woodland. Parts were deliberately devoid of trees for the purpose of providing grazing areas, known as 'hays' or lawns, and later landscaped parklands can frequently be traced back to these areas with the mansion house built over or onto the hunting lodge (e.g. Wakefield Lawn, near Towcester). In addition, the deer park may have a 'warren' or 'coneygarth' where rabbits were raised for food, sometimes surrounded by a moated ditch. (There is an area adjacent to the old Drayton deer park, known as the nunnery, which in all probability was a moated warren).

 

Tony pointed out the characteristics of the medieval deer park. The area was fenced around with a deerproof boundary, an internal ditch about six feet deep and an outer bank of around six feet in height with a fence or pale along its top. Thus deer could leap into the park, sometimes over a purpose built deer leap, but could not escape. The parks were often round or oval in shape to minimise on fencing, whilst sometimes part of the boundary was terminated by water. The area contained within the boundaries averaged about 200 acres, divided into woodland and hays.

 

Since the King owned all the deer, licences were granted by him to enable areas to be emparked by his subjects, and from these licences we can gain some knowledge of the number of parklands. During the first period of the Norman conquest there were few parklands, but these numbers increased until the peak prior to the Black Death of 1347, when a decline set in, only the larger deer parks surviving. Professor Leonard Cantor in his Gazetteer of Deer Parks listed 42 for Northamptonshire, the earliest being that of Higham Ferrers, whose boundaries are coterminous with the county boundary of Bedfordshire.

 

Tony suggested we searched Northamptonshire for examples of medieval deer parks using the clues such as field names including the word ‘Park’

 

September 10, 1999

 

 

OK....Now im not an expert, but i thought that chapter was refering to MEDIEVIL deer parks.... :icon_eek:

 

My apologies, i thought the subject in hand was in reference to the last forty years or so.

 

 

As it happens, many deer parks (today)do not have any wild deer outside their boundaries of the species living within. Red and Fallow being the most commonly found. Indeed, furthermore, the purpose of those leaps were to also get back into the park deer that had escaped out of it.

 

The bottom line is there is nothing "big" about killing park deer, they have no chance and no true lurchermen would do it.

 

 

p.s, I think the deer leaps you refer to are called Ha-ha's....

 

Good Hunting...JD

Link to post

What need to be remembered is that the tit who killed PD Deer was not a poacher, he was running captive park deer and therefore a thief.

Captive deer cannot be poached and anyone who goes and kills park deer , that cannot escape, will get the book thrown at them........JD

well JD all the news papers seem to call poachers THIEFS

if caught and convicted ,especialy when it comes to phesants and other wild game ,the people that own most deer parks are stealing deer ,so what is the difference :hmm:

 

 

What are you on about?....

Its impossible to "steal" wild game.......

 

and how have the people who own deer parks stole deer??

 

I would truly love to know how the Duke of Bedford stole his Pere David's!! :clapper:

 

great fun this internet malarky!!! :clapper:

then why do a lot of convictions include theft ,because the game was taken on some one elses ground ,i should know i was convicted of theft of wild salmon so has hundreds if not thousands of others ,its all the same ,and i will now educate you on how deer parks steel deer [and there was me thinking you knew most things when it comes to this game ]most deer parks have what is known as deer leaps ,[i hope you know what they are ]they are suposed to be used to entice any escapes back into the park ,well wild deer are enticed in as well ,and that is theft ,because the owners just keep them ,i dont know if the duke has a deer leap but i bet he does ,every deer park i used to have fun in had one ,and i walked about a lot of parks in my younger days ,and was proud to be called a thief when it came to running deer ,you could have called me any thing you liked ,as long as i was doing what i loved ,only wish i was a bit younger and quicker ,i would probibly still be anoying some owner of a park some where , :thumbs:

:clapper::clapper: watch it you will get banned taking the piss out of the great jd!!! just found this thought it was worth posting....... THE MEDIEVAL DEER PARK – By Jenny Burt

 

Northamptonshire Gardens Trust - June, 1999.

 

A synopsis of a lecture by Tony Squires, a landscape historian, and member of the Leicestershire and Rutland Gardens Trust, on the subject of the Medieval Deer Park.

 

The concept of the deer park was introduced by the Normans and formed an integral part of the manorial system, playing a major role in the economy and indeed the leisure pursuits of the Lord of the Manor. In Midland areas, the Manorial estate was practically self-sufficient, the land had to provide arable, meadows and woodland, and deer parks were formed only on those estates of the very rich, nobility and the great clerics, who spent much of their time hunting. Land of poor fertility was utilised, and no parks are to be found in areas of high production. The Earl of Cornwall had 21 parks spread over the country whilst the Bishop of Durham had 13.

 

The deer parks were often at some distance from the manor house and might have a small hunting lodge either within or on their boundaries. (At Drayton, Northamptonshire, the old deer park was actually in the parish of Slipton). Tony pointed out that Northamptonshire was covered in vast tracts of woodland, much of which has continued almost to the present day, for example Rockingham, Salcey and Whittlewood forests. These forests were originally the preserve of the King and were governed by Forest Law, much resented by the nobility, and the red, roe and fallow deer and the boar were hunted by the King, the Huntsman's role being to lead the King and his lords towards the quarry.

 

Not all of the forest was woodland. Parts were deliberately devoid of trees for the purpose of providing grazing areas, known as 'hays' or lawns, and later landscaped parklands can frequently be traced back to these areas with the mansion house built over or onto the hunting lodge (e.g. Wakefield Lawn, near Towcester). In addition, the deer park may have a 'warren' or 'coneygarth' where rabbits were raised for food, sometimes surrounded by a moated ditch. (There is an area adjacent to the old Drayton deer park, known as the nunnery, which in all probability was a moated warren).

 

Tony pointed out the characteristics of the medieval deer park. The area was fenced around with a deerproof boundary, an internal ditch about six feet deep and an outer bank of around six feet in height with a fence or pale along its top. Thus deer could leap into the park, sometimes over a purpose built deer leap, but could not escape. The parks were often round or oval in shape to minimise on fencing, whilst sometimes part of the boundary was terminated by water. The area contained within the boundaries averaged about 200 acres, divided into woodland and hays.

 

Since the King owned all the deer, licences were granted by him to enable areas to be emparked by his subjects, and from these licences we can gain some knowledge of the number of parklands. During the first period of the Norman conquest there were few parklands, but these numbers increased until the peak prior to the Black Death of 1347, when a decline set in, only the larger deer parks surviving. Professor Leonard Cantor in his Gazetteer of Deer Parks listed 42 for Northamptonshire, the earliest being that of Higham Ferrers, whose boundaries are coterminous with the county boundary of Bedfordshire.

 

Tony suggested we searched Northamptonshire for examples of medieval deer parks using the clues such as field names including the word ‘Park’

 

September 10, 1999

 

 

OK....Now im not an expert, but i thought that chapter was refering to MEDIEVIL deer parks.... :icon_eek:

 

My apologies, i thought the subject in hand was in reference to the last forty years or so.

 

 

As it happens, many deer parks (today)do not have any wild deer outside their boundaries of the species living within. Red and Fallow being the most commonly found. Indeed, furthermore, the purpose of those leaps were to also get back into the park deer that had escaped out of it.

 

The bottom line is there is nothing "big" about killing park deer, they have no chance and no true lurchermen would do it.

 

 

p.s, I think the deer leaps you refer to are called Ha-ha's....

 

Good Hunting...JD

yes it is about medievel parks because thats when most were set up and they "stole" the deer using leaps and if there was none around the park they would buy them off parks that did. but as you say nothing big in killing park deer never done it never would!

Link to post

What need to be remembered is that the tit who killed PD Deer was not a poacher, he was running captive park deer and therefore a thief.

Captive deer cannot be poached and anyone who goes and kills park deer , that cannot escape, will get the book thrown at them........JD

well JD all the news papers seem to call poachers THIEFS

if caught and convicted ,especialy when it comes to phesants and other wild game ,the people that own most deer parks are stealing deer ,so what is the difference :hmm:

 

 

What are you on about?....

Its impossible to "steal" wild game.......

 

and how have the people who own deer parks stole deer??

 

I would truly love to know how the Duke of Bedford stole his Pere David's!! :clapper:

 

great fun this internet malarky!!! :clapper:

then why do a lot of convictions include theft ,because the game was taken on some one elses ground ,i should know i was convicted of theft of wild salmon so has hundreds if not thousands of others ,its all the same ,and i will now educate you on how deer parks steel deer [and there was me thinking you knew most things when it comes to this game ]most deer parks have what is known as deer leaps ,[i hope you know what they are ]they are suposed to be used to entice any escapes back into the park ,well wild deer are enticed in as well ,and that is theft ,because the owners just keep them ,i dont know if the duke has a deer leap but i bet he does ,every deer park i used to have fun in had one ,and i walked about a lot of parks in my younger days ,and was proud to be called a thief when it came to running deer ,you could have called me any thing you liked ,as long as i was doing what i loved ,only wish i was a bit younger and quicker ,i would probibly still be anoying some owner of a park some where , :thumbs:

:clapper::clapper: watch it you will get banned taking the piss out of the great jd!!! just found this thought it was worth posting....... THE MEDIEVAL DEER PARK – By Jenny Burt

 

Northamptonshire Gardens Trust - June, 1999.

 

A synopsis of a lecture by Tony Squires, a landscape historian, and member of the Leicestershire and Rutland Gardens Trust, on the subject of the Medieval Deer Park.

 

The concept of the deer park was introduced by the Normans and formed an integral part of the manorial system, playing a major role in the economy and indeed the leisure pursuits of the Lord of the Manor. In Midland areas, the Manorial estate was practically self-sufficient, the land had to provide arable, meadows and woodland, and deer parks were formed only on those estates of the very rich, nobility and the great clerics, who spent much of their time hunting. Land of poor fertility was utilised, and no parks are to be found in areas of high production. The Earl of Cornwall had 21 parks spread over the country whilst the Bishop of Durham had 13.

 

The deer parks were often at some distance from the manor house and might have a small hunting lodge either within or on their boundaries. (At Drayton, Northamptonshire, the old deer park was actually in the parish of Slipton). Tony pointed out that Northamptonshire was covered in vast tracts of woodland, much of which has continued almost to the present day, for example Rockingham, Salcey and Whittlewood forests. These forests were originally the preserve of the King and were governed by Forest Law, much resented by the nobility, and the red, roe and fallow deer and the boar were hunted by the King, the Huntsman's role being to lead the King and his lords towards the quarry.

 

Not all of the forest was woodland. Parts were deliberately devoid of trees for the purpose of providing grazing areas, known as 'hays' or lawns, and later landscaped parklands can frequently be traced back to these areas with the mansion house built over or onto the hunting lodge (e.g. Wakefield Lawn, near Towcester). In addition, the deer park may have a 'warren' or 'coneygarth' where rabbits were raised for food, sometimes surrounded by a moated ditch. (There is an area adjacent to the old Drayton deer park, known as the nunnery, which in all probability was a moated warren).

 

Tony pointed out the characteristics of the medieval deer park. The area was fenced around with a deerproof boundary, an internal ditch about six feet deep and an outer bank of around six feet in height with a fence or pale along its top. Thus deer could leap into the park, sometimes over a purpose built deer leap, but could not escape. The parks were often round or oval in shape to minimise on fencing, whilst sometimes part of the boundary was terminated by water. The area contained within the boundaries averaged about 200 acres, divided into woodland and hays.

 

Since the King owned all the deer, licences were granted by him to enable areas to be emparked by his subjects, and from these licences we can gain some knowledge of the number of parklands. During the first period of the Norman conquest there were few parklands, but these numbers increased until the peak prior to the Black Death of 1347, when a decline set in, only the larger deer parks surviving. Professor Leonard Cantor in his Gazetteer of Deer Parks listed 42 for Northamptonshire, the earliest being that of Higham Ferrers, whose boundaries are coterminous with the county boundary of Bedfordshire.

 

Tony suggested we searched Northamptonshire for examples of medieval deer parks using the clues such as field names including the word ‘Park’

 

September 10, 1999

 

 

OK....Now im not an expert, but i thought that chapter was refering to MEDIEVIL deer parks.... :icon_eek:

 

My apologies, i thought the subject in hand was in reference to the last forty years or so.

 

 

As it happens, many deer parks (today)do not have any wild deer outside their boundaries of the species living within. Red and Fallow being the most commonly found. Indeed, furthermore, the purpose of those leaps were to also get back into the park deer that had escaped out of it.

 

The bottom line is there is nothing "big" about killing park deer, they have no chance and no true lurchermen would do it.

 

 

p.s, I think the deer leaps you refer to are called Ha-ha's....

 

Good Hunting...JD

in my neck of the woods its all fallow in parks and out side ,and if you noticed i said the leaps were there to intice escapes ,but I WAS RIGHT WAS I NOT ,THE OWNERS DO STEAL DEER ,wild dear ,and it is all theft . :yes:

Link to post

why is it nearly all posts end up in arguments and bad mouthing. not so much this one i might add but i could see it going the same way i find poaching a bit like sex all the younger generation seem to think that they are the only ones that have ever done it and the older generation and i include myself in that being a bit condacending to the youngsters who are at least carrying on the old age tradition call it what you will. that us the oldies and generations before us have done. the notorious poacher has he was called was geoff battens no point in initials his name and photos were all over the papers at the time plus in hancocks picture book lambourn.i dont think he actually had as many as he was credited for as has allready been said think it was more he had the fault and took the blame for all the ones that disapeared had the same thing blamed on me many years ago by a trainee keeper that i took lamping and started his pup off for him blamed me when a load of pheasants disapeared. came out it was him selling them all along to a small private shoot funny he had problems in his next 2 jobs after that and gave up keepering.

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Makes you realise how old you are when you can remember the article appearing in the news about the Pierre David deer!

 

:hmm: I'm sure that bloke was on here, not 12 months ago, his name was his user name and posted about, or was looking for Alsation x's ;)

Edited by Bosun11
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The book was first published in 1977 so taking deer by false light can only of been in its infancy back then?

Page 63 in the book shows how much lamping was still in its infancy.I remember DB Plummer taking the piss out of the 2 pictures shown, and saying how cumbersome the equipment looked.

 

Ive used worse equipment in my youth laugh.gif

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if its THEFT then who did they steal them off........ :whistling:

could be a number of people or companys ,i will let you work it out ,all i can tell you is ,this was pointed out to me and the crown court prosecuter during a very big deer poaching trial, by a high court judge AND HE SHOULD KNOW

,he also warnd the owner of the park ,that if it was up to him he would get some one to look into it deeper because the owner of the park was commiting a crime by enticing wild deer in ,and it was theft of wild animals ,HE WAS A GOOD JUDGE ,[he let me go free : :D ]even tho they had one of my dogs ,my hat ,my lamp and battrie that i supposedly knocked a keeper unconcous with while escaping ,the other person that was caught[and sentenced to 6 months in prison ] also told them it was me , : :doh: :but thats another story .so as you see IT IS THEFT :yes:

Edited by 2GOOD
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if its THEFT then who did they steal them off........ :whistling:

who do you steal wild salmon off,because thats what they charge you with

Because in the Theft Act of 1968 makes poaching offences where there is no nesessity to show that the fish were actually capable of being stolen, or indeed, whether they had actually been taken. This is only in relation to fish and is my interpretation of said Act. I will stand corrected though. :victory:

 

There is no such mention of deer in the act. Ergo, wild deer , while they are alive, can only be poached. However, once dead they can be stolen. Park deer cannot be poached. They belong to someone and it is theft. :icon_eek:

 

Phew!!..

 

Happy Hunting...JD

Link to post

if its THEFT then who did they steal them off........ :whistling:

who do you steal wild salmon off,because thats what they charge you with

Because in the Theft Act of 1968 makes poaching offences where there is no nesessity to show that the fish were actually capable of being stolen, or indeed, whether they had actually been taken. This is only in relation to fish and is my interpretation of said Act. I will stand corrected though. :victory:

 

There is no such mention of deer in the act. Ergo, wild deer , while they are alive, can only be poached. However, once dead they can be stolen. Park deer cannot be poached. They belong to someone and it is theft. :icon_eek:

 

Phew!!..

 

Happy Hunting...JD

along those lines before the ban you could go onto forestry ground and course deer in the day and kill them with dogs ,and not be done for any thing ,untill you took them from there.

Edited by 2GOOD
Link to post

if its THEFT then who did they steal them off........ :whistling:

could be a number of people or companys ,i will let you work it out ,all i can tell you is ,this was pointed out to me and the crown court prosecuter during a very big deer poaching trial, by a high court judge AND HE SHOULD KNOW

,he also warnd the owner of the park ,that if it was up to him he would get some one to look into it deeper because the owner of the park was commiting a crime by enticing wild deer in ,and it was theft of wild animals ,HE WAS A GOOD JUDGE ,[he let me go free : :D ]even tho they had one of my dogs ,my hat ,my lamp and battrie that i supposedly knocked a keeper unconcous with while escaping ,the other person that was caught[and sentenced to 6 months in prison ] also told them it was me , : :doh: :but thats another story .so as you see IT IS THEFT :yes:

 

 

lol....In the letter of the LAW its impossible to steal live wild deer....

 

if you wish to pm me the data about what you are refering to i will look into it and issue a full apology to you.

 

But, the law is the law. And if i am wrong please find the legislation or any reference to said legislation and i will retract everything i have said...

You were lucky to have been let off with being in a park with lamp and battery. I know others who haven't been as fortunate and landed a stay in Her Majesties pleasure,.... :icon_eek::cry:

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