Rainmaker 7 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 ...go to the police armed with evidence that they were well cared for and ask that the RSPCA prove otherwise or return the horses to you. speak to the help group and they will put you in touch with a solicitor that can help. Unless I missed something under the newish Animal Welfare Act, even if the horses WERE neglected (which I'm quite sure they weren't!) the arsepca still have no power to seize them off their own bat as they're a charity not a Crown or court body. They could only do so under the direction of a constable, court order or similar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
labsnlurchers 39 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 ...go to the police armed with evidence that they were well cared for and ask that the RSPCA prove otherwise or return the horses to you. speak to the help group and they will put you in touch with a solicitor that can help. Unless I missed something under the newish Animal Welfare Act, even if the horses WERE neglected (which I'm quite sure they weren't!) the arsepca still have no power to seize them off their own bat as they're a charity not a Crown or court body. They could only do so under the direction of a constable, court order or similar. yes i think your right but the fact is they do and they get away with it too. This guy has the right to see his horses as they have not been signed over to the RSPCA. Thats what he needs to do, take a recorder with him and get them to say on tape that the horses are well cared for and were in good health when they were siezed, get pictures of his Mrs being reunited with her horses. go every day to the office, police station, papers, get in touch with DEFRA, vets, solicitors. Hound them all until you get some answers and more importantly some action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Toka 10 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Hi...you mention two other horses in the field with yours....who's are they? if you dont know who's they are who owns the land, 'cos they should know who's horses are on there.... if you can, you will need to get them to come forward with this information - that may speed up your case. The problem we all face is that if someone believes they have a right to take the 'property' [in this case horses] in order to make sure they are given proper care etc...then it is not theft as that person believed they have a right to do that. in a case such as this you would have a big problem prooving that they were in good health to begin with... the police will just direct you to a solicitor. as has been said, when was the most recent time a vet saw one/both horses - this evidence if recent could be shown to prove you two horses are in good health and well cared for. Again the problem you have is you will have to proove the other horses are nowt to do with you as if one of them was in a bad way and someone thought they were all one owners then all could be seized. I seem to remember for the RSPCA to seize anything without them being signed over it has to be a 'near death' situation??!! from recent topics the sooner you can get them back the better it will be if the RSPCA's track record with eagles is anything to go by.... anyway if you can evidence that yours were/are healthy and put some evidence forward distancing yourself from the other two horses then you will have a much stronger case. All the best with it, hope you get them back!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
artic 595 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Have you any documentation from the RSPCA stating that you are under investigation and or the reasons for why the horses have been seized? Seized is very different to theft. Going to the police will not solve this matter. Looks to me its going to be a civil dispute between yourself, the other owner of that horse and the RSPCA. This will be resolved at a small claims court. Good luck, i hope you win the case and set the record straight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cannyboy 34 Posted November 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 yes that is correct they say its going to be a civil case and because of that we cant get legal aid and the cost of a trail will cost min 5000 for a 2 day trial. The rspca say that 1 of the horses was in a poor condition but she was an elderly mare with foal which had taken her back abit and she was owned by the chap who we rented the field from but ive since found out that he didnt own the field just sub letted to us.since this has been going on he 1st refused to contact the rspca as he was worried he might get into trouble for the mare lookin bit thin, his phone is now switched off and that was the only contact details we had for him ive supplied his name and number to rspca but they say they are not happy with this unless i supply them with a home address for him. but surely the law is they have to prove we own the mare which we dont but instead they say we have to prove to them we dont, the solicitor doesnt agree with them but only way to dispute it is in court but thats where the costs come in. they have confirmed to my solicitor that there is nothing wrong with our 2 but unless i supply them with address of the other chap then they say they wont return our horses and if we dont agree with that then take them to court. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaker 7 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 yes that is correct they say its going to be a civil case and because of that we cant get legal aid and the cost of a trail will cost min 5000 for a 2 day trial. The rspca say that 1 of the horses was in a poor condition but she was an elderly mare with foal which had taken her back abit and she was owned by the chap who we rented the field from but ive since found out that he didnt own the field just sub letted to us.since this has been going on he 1st refused to contact the rspca as he was worried he might get into trouble for the mare lookin bit thin, his phone is now switched off and that was the only contact details we had for him ive supplied his name and number to rspca but they say they are not happy with this unless i supply them with a home address for him. but surely the law is they have to prove we own the mare which we dont but instead they say we have to prove to them we dont, the solicitor doesnt agree with them but only way to dispute it is in court but thats where the costs come in. they have confirmed to my solicitor that there is nothing wrong with our 2 but unless i supply them with address of the other chap then they say they wont return our horses and if we dont agree with that then take them to court. Have you spoken to Clive and the SHG yet? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
labsnlurchers 39 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 yes that is correct they say its going to be a civil case and because of that we cant get legal aid and the cost of a trail will cost min 5000 for a 2 day trial. The rspca say that 1 of the horses was in a poor condition but she was an elderly mare with foal which had taken her back abit and she was owned by the chap who we rented the field from but ive since found out that he didnt own the field just sub letted to us.since this has been going on he 1st refused to contact the rspca as he was worried he might get into trouble for the mare lookin bit thin, his phone is now switched off and that was the only contact details we had for him ive supplied his name and number to rspca but they say they are not happy with this unless i supply them with a home address for him. but surely the law is they have to prove we own the mare which we dont but instead they say we have to prove to them we dont, the solicitor doesnt agree with them but only way to dispute it is in court but thats where the costs come in. they have confirmed to my solicitor that there is nothing wrong with our 2 but unless i supply them with address of the other chap then they say they wont return our horses and if we dont agree with that then take them to court. Does the mare with the foal have a passport? is it registered? you might be able to get an address that way if you have his name, area he lives and type of horse, colour, sex, approx age etc? Try it, explain your circumstances, it might help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Toka 10 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 hi, did you have any insurance covering your horses...if so it may have a legal costs part to it??? or it may be covered under your house insurance policy as the horses are property.... just trying to see if there is any way to cover legal expenses. it would make things a bit easier if you could find a way of starting proceedings, if the horses are under £2000 then small claims court would be the first step....it only costs £25 to start the proceedings and can be done online. it would help to get media coverage as the rspca would not want adverse media coverage. if a case found in your favour, whether small claims court or court then from what you have stated i cant see you being awarded any costs at all....so rspca would have to pay all costs in the end, plus all the bad publicity... i am fairly sure that the dishonesty part of the theft offence is what allowed them to take the horses at the start of this....i think the dishonesty element can change as time goes on... for example someone who finds a wallet with money in on the pavement takes it in order to try to find the owner, puts up posters, asks in local shops, etc [at this stage he doesnt committ theft as he does not want to deprive the owener of it and has acted reasonably]...if however the owner comes forward but by then the finder has decided he likes the wallet and wants to keep it - he has now committed the offence as knowing who the owner is he has refused to give it back..... if i am right then the rscpa have acted like this....if you have all the evidence that proves the 2 horses are yours and that they are not in ill health i would suggest that there may be a theft case that the police could pursue. as already directed Clive and the support group will be more knowledgable!!!! ATB and good luck!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
artic 595 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 hi, did you have any insurance covering your horses...if so it may have a legal costs part to it??? or it may be covered under your house insurance policy as the horses are property.... just trying to see if there is any way to cover legal expenses. it would make things a bit easier if you could find a way of starting proceedings, if the horses are under £2000 then small claims court would be the first step....it only costs £25 to start the proceedings and can be done online. it would help to get media coverage as the rspca would not want adverse media coverage. if a case found in your favour, whether small claims court or court then from what you have stated i cant see you being awarded any costs at all....so rspca would have to pay all costs in the end, plus all the bad publicity... i am fairly sure that the dishonesty part of the theft offence is what allowed them to take the horses at the start of this....i think the dishonesty element can change as time goes on... for example someone who finds a wallet with money in on the pavement takes it in order to try to find the owner, puts up posters, asks in local shops, etc [at this stage he doesnt committ theft as he does not want to deprive the owener of it and has acted reasonably]...if however the owner comes forward but by then the finder has decided he likes the wallet and wants to keep it - he has now committed the offence as knowing who the owner is he has refused to give it back..... if i am right then the rscpa have acted like this....if you have all the evidence that proves the 2 horses are yours and that they are not in ill health i would suggest that there may be a theft case that the police could pursue. as already directed Clive and the support group will be more knowledgable!!!! ATB and good luck!! There is no theft here. Good example, Blackstones rings a bell........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaker 7 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 There is no theft here. Good example, Blackstones rings a bell........ So if I come round to yours in the night or while you're out, and lift your dogs because next door's looks a bit ropey and then refuse to give them back to you... that's not theft? The arsepca have no more powers than you or I so I'm struggling to see what makes them different in the eyes of the law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
artic 595 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 There is no theft here. Good example, Blackstones rings a bell........ So if I come round to yours in the night or while you're out, and lift your dogs because next door's looks a bit ropey and then refuse to give them back to you... that's not theft? The RSPCA have no more powers than you or I so I'm struggling to see what makes them different in the eyes of the law. No its burglary............. They have been seized for the purpose of an investigation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaker 7 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 No its burglary............. They have been seized for the purpose of an investigation. But the arsepca aren't Crown officials, nor a law enforcement agency. Perhaps I'm conducting an investigation on YOU (in my above hypothetical scenario obviously lol)... Can I take your dogs now? I don't wish to sound fatuous but I just don't see how they get away with it. The arsepca only manage to prosecute people in the same way your or I could, under legislation that is a common informers act. It doesn't give them the legal power to enter property or seize property. They aren't the police and don't have PACE powers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gonetoearth 5,144 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 THEFT , OF EQUINE STOCK , THEY LEFT A CARD IN A FIELD THEY MADE NO INQUIRES TO THE OWNER, THE RSPCA ARE A GANG IN UNIFORMS MISFITS , WHO ARE ALLOWED TO ACT AS THEY PLEASE , THEY TAKE MONEY UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, THE KILL DOGS, CATS, HORSES, ETC AT THE WHIM OF SOME NEARDOWELL VET, THE RSPCA SHOULD BE CHALLENGED BY EVERY ONE OR THEY WILL END UP LIKE COMMUNITY OFFICERS IN UNIFORMS CRAVING POWERS OF ARREST , SEIZED FOR INVESTIGATION MY ARSE , Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rainmaker 7 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 THEFT , OF EQUINE STOCK , THEY LEFT A CARD IN A FIELD THEY MADE NO INQUIRES TO THE OWNER, THE RSPCA ARE A GANG IN UNIFORMS MISFITS , WHO ARE ALLOWED TO ACT AS THEY PLEASE , THEY TAKE MONEY UNDER FALSE PRETENSES, THE KILL DOGS, CATS, HORSES, ETC AT THE WHIM OF SOME NEARDOWELL VET, THE RSPCA SHOULD BE CHALLENGED BY EVERY ONE OR THEY WILL END UP LIKE COMMUNITY OFFICERS IN UNIFORMS CRAVING POWERS OF ARREST , SEIZED FOR INVESTIGATION MY ARSE , Quote Link to post Share on other sites
artic 595 Posted November 16, 2009 Report Share Posted November 16, 2009 No its burglary............. They have been seized for the purpose of an investigation. But the RSPCA aren't Crown officials, nor a law enforcement agency. Perhaps I'm conducting an investigation on YOU (in my above hypothetical scenario obviously lol)... Can I take your dogs now? I don't wish to sound fatuous but I just don't see how they get away with it. The RSPCA only manage to prosecute people in the same way your or I could, under legislation that is a common informers act. It doesn't give them the legal power to enter property or seize property. They aren't the police and don't have PACE powers. No you cant! Yes your right, they dont follow PACE precedures, but they have a duty of care for animals and have the power (if in use for investigation) to seize that animal/or animals for the purpose of an investigation. You dont unless you work for them, or your a police officer and have the grounds to do so. If a member of the public did take these horses, then yes a theft will of occured. Its a bummer i know, but thats the law. CRAP............ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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