Mr_Logic 5 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Biggest problem with HMR is that because it flies flat people up the range at which they shoot foxes. Fine on bunnies but absolute top whack with HMR should be 100yards, less is better! Just doesn't have the right degree of energy or expansion further out. Link to post
jamie g 17 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 thing is if you can hit a rabbit at 100 yards in the head with hmr then a fox shot in the head with hmr at 50 should be easy. if you cant then you shouldnt be shooting Link to post
akton 15 Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 some good points of view, to anyone new to shooting or is interested in putting in for their FAC keep the thread going Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Has anyone ever been prosecuted for taking a fox with a rimfire? I have another question, has anyone ever been prosecuted for killing a fox with a bow and arrow? One thing that we tend to forget is that the law is an "ass" and until a judge has ruled upon a bit of legislation that bit of legislation will always be open to debate. It is not the actual wording of the law that has to worry us, it's the path leading to the court and the judge that we have to be constantly aware of. We can all debate and fumble over the law, it means nothing. However all it would take, is for you to be out with your .22rf and wound a fox and for just one person who wished to push the issue to take it up and bring you in front of a court. It is then, you will be worried if you had the misfortune not to follow recognised expert advice, the same advice open to one and all. I'll quote just one, which makes good reading and written by the BASC a government advisory body. In the modern world, being shown to be incompetent and not using recognised and recommended methods is being guilty of an offence as we all know. A bit like the drink drive laws, there is a set limit but if an officer feels that even the smallest amount of alcohol has effected your driving, potentially a court can prosecute you. a) Rabbits and other small quarry. The .22 Rimfire (R/F) is almost universally used for rabbit shooting. It is powerful enough to ensure a humane kill without damaging the carcase so as to make it unattractive in the market. It is not sufficiently powerful for the humane shooting of foxes unless the range is very short - 50 yards or less - and circumstances allow the bullet to be placed with great precision. The rifle will usually be fitted with a sound moderator (often erroneously called a “silencerâ€), and used with “sub-sonic†ammunition. This is ammunition designed to propel the bullet at just below the speed of sound (about 1100 feet per second), thus avoiding the sharp crack of super-sonic bullets and making the moderator much more effective. More about sound moderators later. There is also a .22 R/F cartridge which produces twice the energy of the standard Long Rifle round. This is the .22WMR (Winchester Magnum Rimfire). Despite the similar name, the two cartridges are not interchangeable. In an accurate rifle this cartridge is useful where rabbits must be shot at ranges of 100 yards or more and it is also sufficiently powerful to be a humane choice for fox control as long as shots are not taken beyond about 100 yards. The recently-introduced .17 rim fire calibers (HMR & HM2) are a good choice for shooting rabbits and other small pest species at longer ranges; it is at its best when used beyond about 90 to 100 yards, and it compliments the .22 R/F which is preferable for shorter ranges. Fox, hare, feral cat and similar. From here on, all cartridges will be centrefire and the bullets they fire will be jacketed since lead would strip off in the rifling at the higher velocities unless protected by (usually) a copper jacket. Either a hollow point or an exposed lead nose ensures that the bullet expands on impact and thus transmits the maximum of energy to the target for a sure, clean kill. There is a plethora of .22 centrefire cartridges firing bullets of about the same size as the .22R/F but at much higher velocity. Those usually encountered in Britain are, in ascending order of power, the .22 Hornet, the .222 Remington , the .223 Remington (which is the same as the 5.56mm Nato cartridge) and the 22/250 Remington. Very occasionally you may come across a .220 Swift. You may also meet or be asked about the .17 Remington which fulfills the same function using a lighter bullet of around 20 grains weight at about 4000 feet per second muzzle velocity. Don’t be fooled by the names; all but the .17 Remington fire bullets of .224 inch diameter. Bullet weight in the .22 calibres may range from 40 to about 70 grains. (There are 437.5 grains to the ounce and 7000 grains to the pound). Velocities range from about 2600 feet per second (FPS) to almost 4000 FPS and it is a matter of individual choice as to which cartridge may be most suitable for the intended purpose. John Dear Mr whoever you are...your comment was .. As already said it's not a suitable calibre at all. That is a Blanket statement and therefore untrue. I do not care what you guys want to call a fox, and I am not debating the Vermin issue...MY FAC CLEARLY STATES FOX next to my .22Lr, HMR and WMR and my centrefires Apparently yours does not, so kindly stop telling the world how much you know and read my first 2 original posts again. And kindly stop suggesting I am a liar over my BPCA/RSPH and deer mentoring, it is not big, not clever and not true. As is well known by anyone who I have any time for on this site, I do not big it up, I am not a keyboard warrior and if I say it then I have done it! Link to post
HUnter_zero 58 Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) As is well known by anyone who I have any time for on this site, I do not big it up, I am not a keyboard warrior and if I say it then I have done it! Are you board coz no ones been speaking to you or what? Lime lights over that way .........and pick your teddy up on the way as well. John Edited August 28, 2009 by HUnter_zero Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) As is well known by anyone who I have any time for on this site, I do not big it up, I am not a keyboard warrior and if I say it then I have done it! Are you board coz no ones been speaking to you or what? Lime lights over that way .........and pick your teddy up on the way as well. John Is there any chance you can contribute to the thread instead of hurling personal abuse? You do seem to have some problem with comprehension..once again let me bring these 2 posts to your attention...... QUOTE (HUnter_zero @ Aug 23 2009, 02:11 PM) QUOTE (davyt63 @ Aug 23 2009, 12:04 PM) hi would it be ok to use subsonic ammo, in a rimfire for foxes.is it the right caliber for foxes regards davy As already said it's not a suitable calibre at all. The little .22rf will kill foxes but you need something a little bigger, as suggested the .22H is a great fox calibre but has mainly been replaced by the .222 & .223 (and unwisely (IMHO)the .17HMR). John Chap...you really do need to reign it in a bit...that is NOT true, I and MANY people have FOX specifically listed on our FAC next to .22LR. (and also on my HMR and my .22WMR..as well as the centrefires) This is for the simple reason there are times when it is not only suitable but the preferred calibre, so please hold back a bit. The Home Office Guide more than suggests that most will not get a .22lr for FOX, but that is a guide, and the Police will consider reason. Certainly if you were to consider just one rifle for fox I concede that a .22lr is unlikely to be granted to many, and would not be most peoples first choice anyway! -------------------- QUOTE (davyt63 @ Aug 23 2009, 12:04 PM) hi would it be ok to use subsonic ammo, in a rimfire for foxes.is it the right caliber for foxes regards davy Hi Davy. This has been round before and is always a bit of a Hornets nest. First off a .22lr will not be most peoples first choice Fox round and many will not get it granted for fox anyway. This may sound odd to many but read twice if you need to... From my point of view the .22lr 40g Lead HP Sub is an excellent close range fox tool, the bullet expands a treat and punches a big hole, often imparting all its energy. That is the only way I would use it on fox, I would not use high velocity .22lr simply because it is not as accurate, will tend to pass right through at close range and commonly hardly expand at all, imparts relatively little energy and doesn't have anything like the shock effect of say a .223! So close range with .22lr subs yes!!! For most normal general fox shooting, well, certainly a Hornet upwards, but I rate my .223 much better than that and the distance pushes out much more to! Now, if you would like to tell me which parts you struggle to understand I will gladly write it again in bigger letters! Edited August 28, 2009 by Deker Link to post
HUnter_zero 58 Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 You do seem to have some problem with comprehension..once again let me bring these 2 posts to your attention...... No, Deker or whoever you are, you seem to miss the single fact that I don't want to communicate with you. IMHO you are an attention seeking brat who undoubtedly was picked on as a child and loves to have the whole group squabbling about you. No need to bring anything to my attention, as to me you are as important as the day before the day after yesterday, so If I seem to care, please tell me. I would hate to be giving the wrong impression Now trot along my good boy and continue with your happy existence, I have always been told that If I can't say anything nice, then at least have the decency to be vague, so tally ho! John Link to post
223 cz 0 Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 ive done fox 110 yards hmr no probs never with 22lr 223 prefered tool thats my 2 pence worth any way Link to post
HUnter_zero 58 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 (edited) ive done fox 110 yards hmr no probs never with 22lr 223 prefered tool thats my 2 pence worth any way Anyone who has used the .22rf for any length of time knows it capabilities. As a general fox tool the .22rf is useless, with the exception of close range shooting. There is no need to debate it, it's common as muck knowledge. John Edited August 29, 2009 by HUnter_zero Link to post
Mr_Logic 5 Posted August 29, 2009 Report Share Posted August 29, 2009 ive done fox 110 yards hmr no probs never with 22lr 223 prefered tool thats my 2 pence worth any way Anyone who has used the .22rf for any length of time knows it capabilities. As a general fox tool the .22rf is useless, with the exception of close range shooting. There is no need to debate it, it's common as muck knowledge. John The 22RF is absolutely not useless as a fox tool! In the open country it is yes, but when you're talking about small holdings with chickens and neighbours that don't like noise, what would you use instead? What about near farms, where noise disturbs the animals, or a situation like I have had where I need to control foxes near horses in stables because the other function at that yard is turkeys for Christmas, and the landowner doesn't want injured horses disturbed but she DOES want the foxes shot. The 22LR is like everything else - horses for courses! If you don't have it on ticket then you have the decision made for you but there ARE times when it's the best tool for the job. At which point it gets used. If there are other times when it's not, then something else gets used. To say otherwise is plain wrong I'm afraid. Would we recommend it as a general-purpose fox tool? No! But I've said that. But that's worlds apart from 'it's useless'. Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 You do seem to have some problem with comprehension..once again let me bring these 2 posts to your attention...... No, Deker or whoever you are, you seem to miss the single fact that I don't want to communicate with you. IMHO you are an attention seeking brat who undoubtedly was picked on as a child and loves to have the whole group squabbling about you. No need to bring anything to my attention, as to me you are as important as the day before the day after yesterday, so If I seem to care, please tell me. I would hate to be giving the wrong impression Now trot along my good boy and continue with your happy existence, I have always been told that If I can't say anything nice, then at least have the decency to be vague, so tally ho! John Lost once again for any reasoned response I see and completely ignored the subject of this thread..... It's very simple chap..if you do not want to communicate with me then ZIP IT, STAY OUT OF MY FACE, AND DO NOT MAKE ANY COMMENTS ABOUT ME OR MY POSTS... Link to post
bobndog 0 Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 ive done fox 110 yards hmr no probs never with 22lr 223 prefered tool thats my 2 pence worth any way Anyone who has used the .22rf for any length of time knows it capabilities. As a general fox tool the .22rf is useless, with the exception of close range shooting. There is no need to debate it, it's common as muck knowledge. John The 22RF is absolutely not useless as a fox tool! In the open country it is yes, but when you're talking about small holdings with chickens and neighbours that don't like noise, what would you use instead? What about near farms, where noise disturbs the animals, or a situation like I have had where I need to control foxes near horses in stables because the other function at that yard is turkeys for Christmas, and the landowner doesn't want injured horses disturbed but she DOES want the foxes shot. The 22LR is like everything else - horses for courses! If you don't have it on ticket then you have the decision made for you but there ARE times when it's the best tool for the job. At which point it gets used. If there are other times when it's not, then something else gets used. To say otherwise is plain wrong I'm afraid. Would we recommend it as a general-purpose fox tool? No! But I've said that. But that's worlds apart from 'it's useless'. At that gentlemen, sums it up nicely, and in a nutshell. Link to post
HUnter_zero 58 Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 As a general fox tool the .22rf is useless, with the exception of close range shooting. There is no need to debate it, it's common as muck knowledge. John Would we recommend it as a general-purpose fox tool? No! But I've said that. But that's worlds apart from 'it's useless'. Not 100% sure which part of my post you failed to read. John Link to post
HUnter_zero 58 Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 It's very simple chap..if you do not want to communicate with me then ZIP IT, STAY OUT OF MY FACE, AND DO NOT MAKE ANY COMMENTS ABOUT ME OR MY POSTS... You really do take the Internet too seriously. Get a life and if you have an issue take it to PM. John Link to post
cyclonebri1 8 Posted August 30, 2009 Report Share Posted August 30, 2009 I know my take on this thread, and I also know who's being the arsehole here, that said and it falls in line with the general consciensious of opinion here, for about the 50 One Hundredth time of asking, "has anyone ever been done for shooting a fox with a .22 regardless of cert detaill?" Ok, I'll stick my neck out and say NO, they have not because it is a perfectly acceptable round under certain circumstances, the only problem being the licencing authorities do not trust the average shooter to know that limitation. Ask me about foxes shot "at" with the 12 bore, and I have totally different views Link to post
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