Gamekeeper bred or Trialler Bred??

[rickyspringer 15]

Hypoglycemia isnt in just trial dogs though can be in any it shouldnt be considered in this discussion if his dog has hypoglycemia then if he wants to show his dogs ability in a field trial than fair play to him. trial dogs arent just used for trials then locked in a kennel till the next trial there used as beaters pickers up ect these dogs have great stamina just because a run in a trial isnt as long as a whole day working doesnt mean they cant work a whole day because that would be a waste of a great worker and they need as much experience in the field as they can get to develop there ability.

 

at the end of the day trial dogs are there to prove them selves as the best workers around.

 

 

I know for a fact that alot of the proffesional dogs are used just as triallers,alot do not participate in a basic shooting day, I know Nic "drummuir" does, but I am sure she will vouch that alot of the dogs just do trialling. I think its a huge shame but thats the way it is, hopefully she will comment on the subject!

 

regards RS

[Young Chud 1]

Hypoglycemia isnt in just trial dogs though can be in any it shouldnt be considered in this discussion if his dog has hypoglycemia then if he wants to show his dogs ability in a field trial than fair play to him. trial dogs arent just used for trials then locked in a kennel till the next trial there used as beaters pickers up ect these dogs have great stamina just because a run in a trial isnt as long as a whole day working doesnt mean they cant work a whole day because that would be a waste of a great worker and they need as much experience in the field as they can get to develop there ability.

 

at the end of the day trial dogs are there to prove them selves as the best workers around.

 

 

I know for a fact that alot of the proffesional dogs are used just as triallers,alot do not participate in a basic shooting day, I know Nic "drummuir" does, but I am sure she will vouch that alot of the dogs just do trialling. I think its a huge shame but thats the way it is, hopefully she will comment on the subject!

 

regards RS

 

that can be true with some trialers i know someone who took his open trial dog heavily picking up one season and then it was ruined for the trialing season. but saying this if you can stay on top of the dog it shouldnt be a problem how much you take them out alot of trialers i know do have there dogs out as much as anyone else

 

but trial dogs arent used all their life for ever are they they will be worked a lot when there retired if not while there are a trial dog.

 

i sitll believe even though breeding is important in producing a good dog u still never know what your going to get thrown from a litter

Edited July 24, 2009 by Young Chud

[welshboy454 3]

Hypoglycemia isnt in just trial dogs though can be in any it shouldnt be considered in this discussion if his dog has hypoglycemia then if he wants to show his dogs ability in a field trial than fair play to him.

Nobody would object to that statement as you say"fair play to him" .

 

However we all have a duty to the health of future working stock. Such a dog should never be bred from.

 

I wonder how many FTCH owners would have the integrity to do that for the sake of the future at the expense of the opportunity to make some money ?

 

Quite a moral dilemna

[Guest ESS]

trialler bred spaniels are usually to hot.

 

 

Bollocks....Id rather a hot one than a plodder

 

 

It doesnt matter wether there keeper bred or trial dog its down to drive of the individual dog..Wether there bred by keeper pet lover or pro breeder Trialler.

[j davies 8]

trialler bred spaniels are usually to hot.

 

 

Bollocks....Id rather a hot one than a plodder

 

 

It doesnt matter wether there keeper bred or trial dog its down to drive of the individual dog..Wether there bred by keeper pet lover or pro breeder Trialler.

 

 

i got 2 cocker spainels 1 is keeper breed and the other is breed from half tril and half working the keeper breed one is 10 times more active she never stops and if she see a feather on the floor she will fetch it back and she is only 11 months old and in water god think she is a duck. the other one is more calm not as active but got more brain than her .

i not people are going to say its the training but both dogs are fetched up the same way

to me if you want a dog that will work all day get the keeper breed one if you want one for the odd hunt and easy to train get the trial breed one

[rickyspringer 15]

thought I would bring this thread back to life after a lil discussion on the young lads thread got a lil' heated and didn't want to ruin it.

 

Well Hendo, you tell me how i am talking utter bollicks, I was advising a young lad on what I would be a good choice for him, horses for courses how i have said, I never mentioned anything about a pedigree being free from Ftch's, that would be stupid..

 

My bitch has got a nice line of Ftch's behind her, all the good old names, I wouldn't dream of buying a springer with no tested lines or dogs behind it... if i did I would be more than likely buying a pet.

 

You have seemed to criticise my thinking because i advised a young lad on not to buy a dog which would go like stink, be amazingly quick and maybe too good for a novice handler... UTTER BOLLICKS that isn't it, Springers can be a tough breed for many people, never mind a cracking bred lil dynamo, in the hands of a novice...that would be very practical wouldn't it..I have heard of a number of experienced dog man who just can't handle some very well bred springers due to beig "too hot"

 

Thought I would defend myself on the subject...

 

Be nice to have some more views on the subject.

[druimmuir 1]

half and half, half breeding, other half down to the individual dog and the jockey on board regardless of the lines, I know some very hot gamekeeper bred dogs.

 

Nic

[upperlane2 4]

tell us this i might be stupid or something but if the keepers dogs have ftch's in the breeding who did they buy there first springers off ??????? the trial men. so wat u are getting are trialing dogs that dont thial just beat in the shoots. so the way i pick my springers is buy the best breeding u can afford if u view the parents and like the way they work the pups usually arent far off them. as for lasting all day the older more experienced the dog gets the longer it will last. u would'nt expect a year old dog to work all day ull destroy it so happy training and dont expect 2 much 2 soon . heres my bitch bug her sister is trialing and she is out beating with me all day and wont tire all day every day

[poacher3161 1,766]

I find it intresting that a dog called Hales Smut apeared in some of the peddigrees in the dogs my spaniels are decended from.I believe he never won a ftwc.But produced quite a few that did.atvb dell

[welshboy454 3]

I find it intresting that a dog called Hales Smut apeared in some of the peddigrees in the dogs my spaniels are decended from.I believe he never won a ftwc.But produced quite a few that did.atvb dell

Apparently he was a little unsteady but in every other way brilliant with lots of drive. I don't think there are many springers without him in the pedigree somewhere if you go back far enough. He was born in 1960.

[welshboy454 3]

I find it intresting that a dog called Hales Smut apeared in some of the peddigrees in the dogs my spaniels are decended from.I believe he never won a ftwc.But produced quite a few that did.atvb dell

Apparently he was a little unsteady but in every other way brilliant with lots of drive. I don't think there are many springers without him in the pedigree somewhere if you go back far enough. He was born in 1960.

A few of Hales Smut pups

IR NFC Greatford Silkie Of Hoodhill {L/W F} KCSB1483AZ 28 Mar 1965

UK.Ft Ch. Layerbrook Beau {L/W M} KCSB1495AZ 28 Mar 1965

UK.Ft Ch. Layerbrook Michelle {L/W F} KCSB2876BC 12 Apr 1967

AFC Layerbrook Solo {M}

NAFC Sunray Of Chrishall {L/W M} SA927526 1 Jun 1968

UK.Ft Ch. Braiswood Pimm {L/W F} KCSB1484AZ 4 Jun 1965

NFC/FC/AFC Wivenwood Willie {L/W M} SA408476 4 Jun 1965

UK.Ft Ch. Bricksclose Scilla {L/W F} KCSB2117AY 14 Apr 1964

AFC Carswell Beatle {B/W M} SA373944 15 Apr 1964

UK.Ft Ch. Crowhill Raffle {L/W M} KCSB2670BE 9 Aug 1968

UK.Ft Ch. Farway Shann {L/W F} KCSB1226BF 4 Jun 1969

UK.Ft Ch. Farway Skipper {L/W M} KCSB3237BE 4 Jun 1969

UK.Ft Ch. Farway Tina {L/W F} KCSB179BF 4 Jun 1969

UK.Ft Ch. Goldeneye Jock {L/W M} KCSB3015AY 4 Oct 1964

UK.Ft Ch. Gwibernant Ashley Robb {L/W M} KCSB2642BE 6 Aug 1968

UK.Ft Ch. Gwibernant Willie {M}

UK.Ft Ch. Gwibernant Garran {L/W F} KCSB1024AZ 27 May 1965

UK.Ft Ch. Lady Of Ardoon {L/W F} KCSB1096AZ 27 May 1965

FC Lord Of Ardoon {M}

CFC Yr Wybyrnant {F}

NAFC Gwibernant Gefni {L/W M} 1 May 1964

UK.Ft Ch. Micklewood Story {L/W M} KCSB3063AX 27 Oct 1963

UK.Ft Ch. Jonkit Joel {L/W M} KCSB3151AY 21 Feb 1964

UK.Ft Ch. Sliguy Of Ardoon {L/W M} KCSB2785AX 1 Jun 1963

[poacher3161 1,766]

Exscuse my ignorance but would a dog like that today that run in a lot of trials but never won one be used as a stud.atvb dell

[welshboy454 3]

half and half, half breeding, other half down to the individual dog and the jockey on board regardless of the lines, I know some very hot gamekeeper bred dogs.

 

Nic

I agree with the sentiments but I would go further for the following reasons.

Openshaw has dominated the trials as a trainer/handler and his dogs are as a result dominating the gene pool for the future. FTCH Clarburgh Art has 150 matings.

In statistical terms the likelihood of Openshaw just happening to have the best dogs out of the whole population of springers is extremely remote but having said that he is unquestionably the best trainer by a long way.

 

In humans we can measure IQ and the statistical proportion of the population above say 130 is 2% but above an Iq of 180 might be 1 in 2million. The chances become rapidly smaller so Openshaws dogs are unlikely to be the best that might have been available.

 

It seems to me that he could have had even more success if there was a way of sifting the best dogs for him to work with . Any objective analysis of the raw material he was using ( although good ) would be unlikely to have been the best of breed.

These unknown dogs (but mathematically they must exist in the whole population of the breed) will have little influence on the gene pool which is being dominated by a trainer.

Having said that they will exist so we need to look out for them.

 

Maybe Hales Smut had the wrong trainer.

[jessdale 416]

Exscuse my ignorance but would a dog like that today that run in a lot of trials but never won one be used as a stud.atvb dell

Hales smut was a spectacular dog,by all accounts,and will have lined a good number of bitches.In this day and age,with the internet especially,his fame would have spread even further, and ,in my opinion,he would have been used more than he was.

Edited August 31, 2009 by jessdale

[welshboy454 3]

This is a link to another forum topic where these ideas are being discussed and is worth a read.

 

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/foru...5642c3529adea3a

 

This is a quote from somebody which if true makes you wonder what is happening.

 

"My [bANNED TEXT] went out with a field trial champ with his gos once and after 20 minuets of explosive working by this spaniel it was smashed to bits and knackered.

and was returned to the truck and another dog was used. "

 

At least the dog I regularly saw being carried home worked a bit longer than that but still unacceptable.