Born Or Made?

[Simoman 110]

I was told something years ago, you can't polish a turd. IMO you need a dog of good breeding, and by that I mean from tested lines and you also need a competent trainer, good rearing and correct entering to quarry to give the dog a decent chance of making a worker..............

[celtic hound 2]

i personally think if it is'nt in the dog to start with then no matter how good a owner/trainer you are,it can't come out.if working parents are not important then why would we bother?why would people go to the lengths they do to breed lines of dogs?undoubtedly some people will be able to do loads more with dogs than other people.some dogs from non-working stock will go on to be worldbeaters.but as a rule of thumb i would say breeding is what makes good dogs,imo

[Neal 1,929]

I'm a teacher so I've looked into this subject in a fair amount of depth with regards to humans and to a certain extent there are some similarities with dogs. I can't remember who said it but somebody once said that although a lot of people refer to their dogs as being "almost human" the opposite is more true ie a lot of human traits are "almost canine," eg pack instinct.

 

Anyway, returning to dogs...the nature/nurture debate will always be a hot potato because although we all, to a certain extent, agree that both have a bearing on a pup's future we can't prove the percentages one way or the other. Would a collie from non-working parents round up sheep better or worse than one from working parents bought and raised by a non-working household?

 

I have two kelpie bitches, both sired by the same stud but out of different bitches. The eldest is out of a bitch who was imported into this country from Germany whereas the youngster is out of a bitch bred in the UK. I've met both dams and the former is more wary of strangers and less outgoing (due to the quarantine ) and the same is true of my two bitches. Now there could be any number of reasons why this is so but one of the reasons could be what they picked up from their dams during those first few formative weeks.

[Guest SJM]

It will be the reason Neal without a doubt. Ive studied early socialisation in depth as Ive always wanted to make sure that any pups Ive bred get the best possible start in life and my studies have taught me that you have to handle pups from the day they are born and interact closely with the mother so that she doesnt mind her pups being handled and she understands and trusts you with them. The pups also rely on scent for the first 2 weeks til their eyes open so its important they know my scent as well as their mothers. Then when the eyes open at 2 weeks you can begin the socialisation process. Picking them up, handling them etc then at around 3 weeks when they are able to hear and starting to stand up you bombard them with lots of different things toys, a variety of surfaces, carpet, newspaper, lino, wood, as they get older (5-6 weeks onwards) if its warm enough they can go outside, its amazing how many pups bred on straw and left to fester with few human interactions can become stressed when they first encounter grass beneath their feet, shocking but true They need to hear loud and sudden noises, I clap my hands, drop bowls, whistle, put the radio on all sorts to get them used to noises and know that a loud bang doesnt mean they have to run off and hide in fear. Prolific studies show that theres a crucial window of opportunity where the puppy forms synapses in the brain and these connections enable it to deal with things it will encounter in later life. If the puppy is shut away with the mother in a barn somewhere it will not form the synapses and it may exhibit stress when faced with different situations as an adult dog. The window is just a few weeks, any socialisation you do after its closed will of course help the dog and its an ongoing process but you can liken it to the kid thats sat down in front of the tv and left to its own devices and shown little affection or close contact by its parents, they often grow up to be troubled adults. I could waffle on a lot more but I wont, all I will say is read and learn for yourselves if you doubt it, just do a google for critical early puppy socialisation and have an open mind

[Neal 1,929]

SJM: cross referring this thread to the one about writing articles; maybe you should pen one about this. I for one find it very interesting.

 

Also, after re-reading my previous post I thought I'd better add, as it wasn't clear, that the bitch from the German dam is very much a one man dog and quite anti-social whereas the bitch from the other dam is very friendly and outgoing.

[SMART DOG 340]

Ok a wee topic for discussion....are good dogs born that way or is it all to do with how they're entered in the field?....is it about opportunity? the amount of game you have access too? Experience.....or is the dog just born that way....Nature V's Nurture.....try to keep it civil and give your reason for your opinion.....my own opinion is it's more to do with how the dog is entered to game. Most pups leave their dam at around 6 - 8 weeks so wont pick up anything from her......I think a dog will learn more from working beside a seasoned campaigner than any trait inherited from the parents.

I think a pup which comes out of good working lines has a better start than a dog coming from unworked lines such as hancocks and other puppy peddlers who breed from anything...SJM is right in what she is staying first 6-8 weeks of a pups life they learn lots from the dam either picking up faults or good points

[undisputed 1,664]

I'm sure I saw one with a blackboard out once drawing diagrams of where to grab quarry.....my point was about hunting not table manners....what does a pup of 6 - 8 weeks know about hunting?.....or do you enter them early in Larkhall????

 

Theres no need for sarcasm, and I dont come from Larkhall I enter my pups around 8 months to an odd rabbit here and there trying to make it as easy as possible for them, around 10-12 months I will start lamping them a night or two a week or giving them a few runs during the day, but if they havent got what it takes all the conditioning/feeding/working alongside other dogs etc in the world wont change that fact. JMHO

 

The sarcasm is because of your first answer which had a wee edge to it....now you state a lot of things as fact when they're actually your opinion. Which is what I'm doing. Now to your comments below.

 

 

....t DOES matter, very much so indeed. A lot of traits a dog will possess in the working field are inherited from its parents, grandparents etc and when you breed a line of dogs you see this start to appear in pups that have been bred down from certain dogs. I have a young pup here who is starting to hunt and I know her grandmother and great grandmother on both sides I saw them work too hundreds of times over the years, now this wee pup has just been coming out with me and Ive been watching her as she learns to use her nose and every time I see her progressing I can see her grandmothers traits through and through, certain ways she does things and mannerisms. No other dogs have shown her these things she is not learning them from watching another dog they are inbuilt into her. Yes experience and good feeding and putting lots of game in front of her will bring the best in her, but if she wasnt bred from good dogs to start with I would be literally "polishing a turd" as the saying goes.

 

 

These traits you say are inherited, so why arn't they passed on to all the pups in the litter? you take any dog from any litter out in the field and their noses will go down..chase moving objects...you dont erase thousands of years of evolution just because the parents might be of dubious lineage....I'm not saying certain charecteristics arn't inherited of course they are....such as feet, size build....same as it is in people but just because a dog dont come from so called "good breeding" doesn't mean that it wont turn out a good one. and thats JMHO!

[undisputed 1,664]

A good working dog man will not take praise himself for his dogs, the praise goes to the dogs ancestors, each of whom is in the dog in some small way.

 

 

Isnt that a contridiction in terms then?......as all dogs originated from working stock

[littlefish 596]

How long or how many opportunities does a dog get to prove if it 'has it'? Even a dog bred from good lines is surely wasted on someone who does not put the work in, or who does not know how to put the work in and then labels the (potentially good) dog as crap?

Edited May 27, 2009 by littlefish

[Guest Defender Poacher]

Some have higher standards than others, therefore how do we define good? If two greyhounds are bred that fail to make the grade, would the offspring be expected to break track records?

Breeding from two lurchers what perform poor in the field WILL IMO breed offspring what perform poor in the field so why take such a risk?

Edited May 27, 2009 by Defender Poacher

[foxfan 479]

Breeding is everything, but you get the odd "one off" thats bred from shite.

[Guest MickyB]

A good working dog man will not take praise himself for his dogs, the praise goes to the dogs ancestors, each of whom is in the dog in some small way.

 

 

Isnt that a contridiction in terms then?......as all dogs originated from working stock

no, its either that you simply dont understand the importance of good breeding behind a good dog..... and im not getting into an argument with you, as you seem keen to bite at folk...... OR, in fact, i think you MAY be aware of the importance of breeding, as your dogs look like working types to me, therefore somewhere in the mirky backwaters of your brain, you know fine well that to get a good working dog, you would sooner pick from a litter out of parents that seem suitable to your requirements, rather than out of a litter of poodles or non working parents of unknown breeding.

 

There are important issues to consider if taking on a pup from non working lines, in fact they are so important, that most serious dog men/women wouldnt even contemplate doing it. As the parents havent been tested, there may be health issues that could arise in the pups, bone problems, bad feet, poor stamina, short life, these things may go un-noticed or perhaps even not bother, a couch potato pet dog. And then theres temprement.... once dogs have been bred simply as pets for a few generations, or worse still, for looks/show, then you will have lost the temprement that makes a determined, biddable worker.

Anyway undisputed, those are my opinions based upon experience, and ive nothing else i want to say on the matter..... happy hunting

 

Micky

[undisputed 1,664]

It will be the reason Neal without a doubt. Ive studied early socialisation in depth as Ive always wanted to make sure that any pups Ive bred get the best possible start in life and my studies have taught me that you have to handle pups from the day they are born and interact closely with the mother so that she doesnt mind her pups being handled and she understands and trusts you with them. The pups also rely on scent for the first 2 weeks til their eyes open so its important they know my scent as well as their mothers. Then when the eyes open at 2 weeks you can begin the socialisation process. Picking them up, handling them etc then at around 3 weeks when they are able to hear and starting to stand up you bombard them with lots of different things toys, a variety of surfaces, carpet, newspaper, lino, wood, as they get older (5-6 weeks onwards) if its warm enough they can go outside, its amazing how many pups bred on straw and left to fester with few human interactions can become stressed when they first encounter grass beneath their feet, shocking but true They need to hear loud and sudden noises, I clap my hands, drop bowls, whistle, put the radio on all sorts to get them used to noises and know that a loud bang doesnt mean they have to run off and hide in fear. Prolific studies show that theres a crucial window of opportunity where the puppy forms synapses in the brain and these connections enable it to deal with things it will encounter in later life. If the puppy is shut away with the mother in a barn somewhere it will not form the synapses and it may exhibit stress when faced with different situations as an adult dog. The window is just a few weeks, any socialisation you do after its closed will of course help the dog and its an ongoing process but you can liken it to the kid thats sat down in front of the tv and left to its own devices and shown little affection or close contact by its parents, they often grow up to be troubled adults. I could waffle on a lot more but I wont, all I will say is read and learn for yourselves if you doubt it, just do a google for critical early puppy socialisation and have an open mind

 

 

So having read a couple of books on socialisation makes you an expert?.....I have a degree in Biology, Sociology and Science and I still dont have the answer......The socialisation process your talking about has nothing to do with hunting instinct. Nothing you mention prepares a dog for its first encounter with quarry......your arguement is a bit like the studies carried out in victorian times when they argued that you could tell a criminal from the shape of his head.....Socialisation is important and a lot of the things you mention go a long way to making a well balanced dog and breeds confidence....which is a very important factor in bringing on a dog.....Show me concrete proof that it's in the breeding and I will change my view....until then you have your view I have mine.

 

One other thing a lot of folk in here seem obsessed with polishing turds....very strange!

[SPOTTY BACKED BIG RACK 90]

there is a lot of polish turds in scotland

[Simoman 110]

One other thing a lot of folk in here seem obsessed with polishing turds....very strange!

 

 

Its just a saying mate and I'm sure you get the idea. The world is full of phrases, Scotland produced the term numpty, one I also like