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Barf For Beginners.........


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#1 Blackbriar

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 09:50 pm

Can I say from the outset that all my dogs are pets, but that I want to do the best by them that I can (they do enjoy chasing squirrels,though!)

After reading up on the horrors of commercial kibble, we began feeding them meat (cooked and raw) for about half the week. Now they won't touch the kibble, so they've made their minds up, and we've decided to go completely BARF. The dogs look much healthier and seem a lot happier, but I'd be grateful if you guys could clear up a couple of uncertainties for me.

I looking to buy from a firm like Bulmers, so would I just add veg and offer bones to chew ?

I've read that they'll need a small amount of carbs.Is this right and if so, what's best to give ?

Is there any fruit or veg they can't have (apart from well known ones like onions and grapes) and do they need fruit/veg every day ?

I've got a Mastiff X of around 40kg and 4 small terriers up to around 8kg, so what percentage of bodyweight should I start off feeding ?

I know this is basic stuff, but I want to get it right and, even though I've read some other sites, I'd value the opinions of you guys more !

Thanks in advance. BB.

#2 Donna Wildwood

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 10:53 pm

Raw meat, bones and offal is all your pet carnivore needs!

I've been feeding raw for 20+ years now.

Carbs, most dogs enjoy some rice or pasta. Mine prefers porridge. But as a carnivore he has no obligate need for carbs. For a hard worker they provide a welcome boost of energy the same a a sports drink does for us but we don't 'need' it.

Veg is the same, if a dog eats a rabbit then yes it will consume some vegetable matter., but with a bigger kill wild dogs will shake out the stomach content and either ignore it or roll in it.

Dogs do not have the enzyme required to break down cellulose, the cell wall of all plant matter. They can only assimilate plant matter that has either been pulped, cooked or been through a herbivore. (hence why dos LOVE rabbit poo!)

Again though, alot of dogs enjoy veg. Mine gets a little bit of whatever veg I have (not grapes! I lost my Reddog to grape poisoning after she stole some :()

Minced food is not needed unless you dog has no teeth.

IMO the bigger the food item the better, make em have to take their time eating it!

Aim for around 5% of ideal bodyweight in food per day for a non worker. But in practice, feed an amount for a while if the dog loses weight feed more, if he gains weight feed less.

There is no need to feed X%protien Y% this Z%that each day. Make sure you acheive a balanceover time and you won't go far wrong ;)

When putting a meal together, think of a whole prey animal. Lots of meat, a fair whack of offal and some bones, add to that a little roughage to replace the skin (unless you are feeding skin on) and Bob's yer aunties live in lover.

This is my very favourite subject!

 

(Ignore what some people say about dogs being omnivore, they are of the order Carnivora! Canis lupus familiaris, they aren't a distant relation of the wolf, they are a subspecies! Wiggle your jaw from side to side, you can yes? So can a pig, so can a bear. All have grinding teeth to utilise plant matter, all can move their jaws from side to side to chew, all are omnivores. Dogs can't, they cannot move their jaws side to side, they have no grinding teeth, they are designed to simply slice food into small enough pieces to swallow :))

:boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy: :boogy:


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#3 Blackbriar

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 10:02 am

Donna, you've left me nothing to say , except "thank you" !!
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#4 sandymere

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 10:12 am

LOL

 

Just a couple of points "But as a carnivore he has no obligate need for carbs." nor do we have an "obligate" need for carbs but there is a big difference between not needing and doing better with. Perhaps you should think about why it's not an obligate carnivore like a cat.

 

"Dogs do not have the enzyme required to break down cellulose, the cell wall of all plant matter." again nor do we so should we stop eating plant matter?? getting to seem they are very like us digestively speaking?

 

"they are of the order Carnivore!" so are Pandas don't they eat Bamboo?? Taxonomy isn't restrictive as to diet lol.

 

Canis lupus familiaris, they aren't a distant relation of the wolf,"  no they are a subspecies that has evolved alongside man to eat and thrive on an omnivores diet. After all why would it produce amylase, the enzyme that breaks down starch into sugars.???

 

Basically BARF is silly, the idea of Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods, Why only Raw, Cooked foods are well digested, better in some cases so are eminently “biologically appropriate” so can you define exactly what makes something biologically appropriate?

 

Better to feed a balanced diet rather than some silly idea based on what wolves may or may not eat. Nothing wrong with raw or cooked meat, it supplies protein and fat, especially when it’s balanced with some carbs (in spite of the carbs being cereal based lol.) It’s called a homemade diet and a lot more sensible than BARF.



#5 Blackbriar

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 10:58 am

Thanks for your input Sandy, which is interesting because the smallest of my terriers prefers the meat warmed up a bit !

I asked about carbs, because I've read that grains are responsible for a lot of allergies in dogs (not an issue for me so far thankfully). A lot of labels list "meat", of various types and quality, as the main ingredient, but if your read carefully corn and maize are split up and given various fancy names. When these are added together, you find that grains are actually the major ingredient. So, kibble feeders are actually giving their dogs large amounts of grain, which could be making their dogs ill ?

Certainly in cheaper foods at least, most of the protein is from plant sources, which dogs don't assimilate as well as animal protein ?

Also, everything I've seen says that dog saliva does NOT contain amylase, so dried food sticks to their teeth and is not broken down, contributing to periodontal disease.

#6 Donna Wildwood

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 12:15 pm

Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods, when my dog can cook or use a tin opener, i will consider tins and cooked to be biologically apropriate.

Cats are obligate carnivore as they need the ammino acid taurine that is only found in meat, dogs can produce their own from other ammino acids ;)

 

The reason I didn't discuss cooked foods nor other home made diets, is because the question was for info on B.A.R.F.

 

I also said dogs don't need carbs. They don't. I didn't say they didn't enjoy them or not to feed them. Like I said mine has porridge.

Feed what you like, if your dog does well thats fine by me :D

But BARF is made out to be some horribly complex diet that is almost immpossible to achieve. It's not it's dead easy.

We are intelligent enough to rais a human infant to adulthood without charts and formulae. I think dogs are a tad easier than that ;)

 

Black Briar you are correct, dogs do NOT produce amylase, hence if you feed chopped carrot, chopped cattot will come out the other end. Destroy the cellulose walls by cooking/blending and they can then utilise it.


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#7 sandymere

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 01:06 pm

Thanks for your input Sandy, which is interesting because the smallest of my terriers prefers the meat warmed up a bit !

I asked about carbs, because I've read that grains are responsible for a lot of allergies in dogs (not an issue for me so far thankfully). A lot of labels list "meat", of various types and quality, as the main ingredient, but if your read carefully corn and maize are split up and given various fancy names. When these are added together, you find that grains are actually the major ingredient. So, kibble feeders are actually giving their dogs large amounts of grain, which could be making their dogs ill ?

Certainly in cheaper foods at least, most of the protein is from plant sources, which dogs don't assimilate as well as animal protein ?

Also, everything I've seen says that dog saliva does NOT contain amylase, so dried food sticks to their teeth and is not broken down, contributing to periodontal disease.

The dental disease is caused through a soft diet, used to see a lot of greyhounds with terrible teeth that were fed mince and brown bread. Bones are a good way of dealing with this. . If amylase cleaned teeth we wouldn’t need dentist. The idea that dogs get allergies to grains is a common misconception; the reality is that animal proteins like beef etc are the biggest cause of dietary allergic reactions in dogs but who would say that we should avoid meat as there is a slight risk of a dog having allergic reaction. Diet is common sense; BARF is a fad, If you don’t want to use a complete then just use a decent homemade diet that is inclusive rather than exclusive. Table scraps, meat and bones, carbs etc and forget the idea that everything has to be raw, grains are the root of all evil etc.

 

Regards s



#8 Kay

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 01:31 pm

I think feeding should be geared to the dogs needs, as an example I was feeding an all raw diet but found my greyhound bitch was loosing weight , so after some observation I found she struggled with the bones, she faired better on a diet of tinned, plain meal & a small amount of chicken, woolfs it down with gusto bless her , she likes her chicken diced up & cooked so that's how she has it quick few mins in the steamer to cook it through, so she has no bones now 

 

feeding imo is about the dogs needs , my 2 loose weight rapidly if there's something not right so I adjust there diet accordingly 



#9 sandymere

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 01:36 pm

Cats are obligate carnivore as they need the ammino acid taurine that is only found in meat, dogs can produce their own from other ammino acids” Alas Donna its not as simple as that, it’s also about use of glucose/protein as an energy source. Cats don’t down regulated protein use when glucose is available unlike dogs and like humans.  Which would suggest dogs/humans have evolved to use these two energy sources together whereas the cat, a true obligate carnivore, hasn’t evolved to do so.

 

In simple terms when a dog/humans haves glucose and protein available as energy sources thier bodies reduce the use of protein, after all its not the best fuel, and uses the glucose along with fat as their main fuel. A true diatry carnivore (obligate carnivore) such as  a cat just keeps on burning protein and so the glucose builds up in the blood stream.

 

 

Digestion is an interesting area you would do well to read up a little more before making claims like

 

“Black Briar you are correct, dogs do NOT produce amylase, hence if you feed chopped carrot, chopped cattot will come out the other end. Destroy the cellulose walls by cooking/blending and they can then utilise it.”

 

Sorry but that is utter rubbish dogs produce amylase and digest carbohydrate sources very well, very near as well as ourselves.

 

 

You could start here

 

http://www.2ndchance...xelsson2013.pdf

 

then this is a little heavier (see the graph re digestion of various cereals….)

 

http://jn.nutrition..../2672S.full.pdf

 I've lots more if you want it :thumbs:

 

 

 

 

Ps I know the question was about BARF that’s why I answered. You see BARF is based on lots of silly misconceptions and half truths  and I like to counter them with a little common sense. As to can’t open a tin, I don’t expect their dog can go and buy a pork chop but bet it can eat one!lol

 

Regards s


Edited by sandymere, 29 January 2015 - 01:42 pm.

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#10 Donna Wildwood

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:06 pm

Well each to their own I suppose, still if anyone wants advice on how to feed raw, give me a shout.

I don't want to argue, I don't want to convert the world to BARF. But if you want to feed it and want help from someone who has done it for years, give me a yell.

 

Once more I will say, I DIDN'T say not to feed your dog carbs, or that they wouldn't do well on them.

As for my dog buyying a pork chop... Why would he need to? He can catch his own tea ;)



#11 Blackbriar

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 07:51 pm

Once again, thanks for the replies - I guess there's more answers than questions !
The main thing I've found is not to rigidly follow a formula.....
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Edited by Blackbriar, 29 January 2015 - 07:53 pm.

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