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Guest Gregg Barrow

Damn, I never knew this conversation was taking place…..guess it’s screwed now, I’m going to ramble.

Not really.

Rainmaker, the information provided is excellent and I’m taking notes.

Not that I have anything scientific to add, but with regards to free choice and what a domestic dog might choose, or choose not to eat, I have a short story (#@!*#, here he goes) :wacko:

Joe Runyon won the 89 Iditarod, European Alpirod and Yukon Quest (I think he’s the last man to do this with the same team). And before this he ran a trap line in Alaska with a dog team. I was working a Personal Protection show in New Mexico and heard that Joe had just moved to a town close by called “Cliff†so I invited myself for a visit. He was living on an old dairy farm with three Patterdales, a Pointer puppy and an old retired Border Collie from Tony McCallum of Australia. The Pointer was about three months old and the Border Collie was an old veteran of the cattle wars, severely arthritic and content to lay in a sunny spot on the property (Tony had left him with Joe while he went back to Australia and tended to some family business). There was a large concrete slab with assorted cow parts and skulls, all well worn, and when I asked him what that was for, he said that’s where he fed.

He simply went to the slaughterhouse once a week and picked up the gut buckets, came home and dumped them on the slab (there is 0 humidity in this part of the country so he could do this) and this is where the dogs would free feed.

I came back a year later on a job interview and stopped by to say hello (again uninvited) and the Pointer looked incredible and the old BC was now eleven years old and puppying around like a young dog.

This revelation definitely peaked my interest in raw feeding and we talked into the wee hours about what he had fed his sled dog teams when he was racing.

Like everyone else, I kept pushing him about vegetables (which he apparently never fed) and he stated in his simple “matter of fact†tone that while he was running the trap line he would shoot a moose or the occasional bear and drag it into camp, and that’s what the dogs ate for a couple of days. When it was season and he was salmon fishing, they received a lot of fish. So I asked the obvious question, “don’t they eat the viscera and stomach contents first� He scratched his head and said that he had read this as well, but over the years he never saw his dog do it. They would go for the stomach and internal organs, but they would always shake them out and guaranteed, he would find a pile of vegetable matter, untouched by the dogs, when they had finished eating that first meal off the kill.

 

Admittedly, I will juice a little parsley, apples, carrots and some garlic for my dogs on occasion, and mix it in with their mince (We have to grind for storage reasons), but I wonder if it’s just me fighting old wives tales, or is it of any real benefit?

Probably the former.

 

Best,

Gregg

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:thumbs-up: Nice one Gregg :thumbs-up:

 

Great post, I enjoyed reading that. Noticed you feed mince - do try to incorporate RMBs into the diet to help prevent periodontal disease mate. The ingredients of the diet are extremely important (so even the mince is good so long as it's minced whole carcases or similar), but the texture and physical form of the diet is at least as important as it's ingredients/nutritional benefit.

 

Occasional veggies etc won't HARM a dog - they're no problem at all. Not of any particular nutritional benefit (ground/liquidised or not), but some dogs enjoy them so that's a fine treat.

 

I've said this all along as you know. Table scraps (including veggies etc) are a perfectly valid addition to the diet - with a few exceptions such as COOKED bones. It's when people start using the words "essential" and "necessary", or the dreaded (and absolutely false) statement "wolves eat the stomach contents first" that I get mad LOL

 

So in summary, your diet sounds good (don't forget those RMBs) - and although your veggie concoction offers no real nutritional benefits, we all enjoy a little "ice cream" every now and then eh? :D

 

Cheers,

 

Lee

 

(edited for typo)

Edited by RainmakerKennels

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some exellent reading there lee .ive been feeding my dogs barf now for over 5 years now .when i dont mix vegatable matter in the mix of raw meat,organ meat they seem to gorge them selfs on grass is this normal .also do you think they get enough veg matter of fresh uncleaned tripe it should hold some kind of veg stuff in the tripe as it is the stomach after all .just want to make sure im feeding my dogs right lee thanks pie

 

Really sorry, I missed the part of your post asking for a reply :icon_redface:

 

Ok mate there's a few issues/questions to be brought up here. Let's start at the beginning and work from there, eh! First of all congrats on feeding a raw diet :D Personally I don't like much of the BARF philosophy, especially the ground food and compulsory 66%+ veggies/fruit/herbs/nuts/seeds.

 

That aside (you didn't ask me to pick apart your feeding method), I digress...

 

Grass feeding in itself isn't anything to worry about. For some dogs it's almost a habit, like biting nails or stroking your beard/tache lol Others eat rough grass to help them vomit. Some just like it. I like ice lollies, doesn't mean there's any nutrition in them, but still...

 

If your dogs are used to being fed veggies (five years now), they may "miss" the texture in their food bowl. This being especially possible as you state you feed MINCED or otherwise small chunks (I am presuming that a mix of meat and organs can't possibly be in the same place at the same time = mince or chunks - unless you're feeding carcases??).

 

Give them more raw meaty bones to chew on! Better yet switch to 100% carcases and RMBs etc. That will give them something to do mentally, and really work out those gums and teeth.

 

You may well find that the Dexter Cow impersonation fades away all by itself.

 

Also, as the diet is tending toward the liquid side, veg (or grass) will provide "fullness". When a dog spends an hour, or even six hours, working hard shearing skin, muscle and sinew from bone and then crunching the bone up and eating it (not necessarily always in that order!) the system works together.

 

That is, olfactory senses (eyes, nose) sense food and tell the brain "dinner time". The brain then in reply sends signals to the dog "pick it up, chew it, rip it". All this while the brain is telling the stomach "Hey food's coming - get ready" and a whole host of digestive processes start up. Then after a while, the stomach and brain work together and say "Hey, we've been taking food on for a good while now, stop eating we're full!"

 

In the mush/ground/mince/small chunks fed dog, this all happens in a few seconds as "Hey food! Slurp. Burp! Hmm, hungry". Although a very simplistic explanation, this could explain why the dog is seeking more intake (grass in this case) when fed minus the veggies.

 

Doesn't mean the veg is appropriate but rather in this case the dog is craving something that isn't there in the bowl. No not veg, sustenance and fullness. There is a theory expounded (by vets, not some keyboard commando lookalike like me who you don't know from Adam) that kibble fed dogs are the same. They don't get the satisfaction from chewing on bones for hours on end, and aren't getting that "X factor" from their kibble or mush. So, they eat more. Still not happening. Eat more... end result is obese pets chewing the furniture.

 

As I said this is a POSSIBLE explanation for some or all of the cause of this behaviour. I'm no expert, I can only offer experience and quote others who are eminent in their fields. My suggestion, fwiw, is cut out veggies for at least a month, cut out mince (or whatever it is you're doing to mix stuff up) altogether, and feed carcases where possible (you hunt, right?), raw meaty bones when not, and some offal when you're not giving carcases.

 

It doesn't have to be complicated, or all at the same time. You could give pork trotters on Monday, half a chicken on Tuesday, a 30p mackerel from Asda on Wednesday, tripe on Thursday (whole if poss or if not feed some tripe and finish with a smaller RMB), whole heart and kidney on Friday... etc.

 

After that month or two, just see the difference. Don't forget a before and after of the teeth and gums, skin and fur, activity levels, and even flatulence ;) Believe me, we might not get to the end of the OVER eating of grass just yet (hopefully we will though) but I promise your dogs will look better for it while we carry on working it out ;)

 

Feel free to email me any time, also you might want to download a free book called Work Wonders - Feed Raw Meaty Bones!. It is written by Dr Tom Lonsdale, and was published in book form originally but after deciding that "getting the word out" was more important than money, he made it free...

 

HERE

 

Cheers,

 

Lee

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Guest Gregg Barrow

Rainmaker,

 

I appreciate it.

The dogs get chicken backs and turkey necks to snack on when they are in the kennel (the kennels I can bleach, our carpet I can’t :no: ) and our diet consists mainly of backs, necks, leg quarters (chicken) ……then we shop for the best prices on our beef, hearts, liver, veal tripe etc.

The new pup got her first turkey neck today and dragged it from one end of the office to the other, then tried to bury it, then chewed on it for awhile, then panicked when I picked it up and gave it to my wife’s dog. A little competition never hurts and given time, she will be finishing them off in short order. :laugh:

Unfortunately, here in Houston (TX) raw feeding is becoming the norm and even the dry food manufacturers are marketing their products as “the perfect compliment to your BARF diet. No Joke! (Google the Innova EVO). So, the necks and carcasses that were once “freeâ€, I’m now paying 48 cents a pound for them.

 

But, it’s still cheaper (a whole lot cheaper) then dry and one heckuva lot cheaper then vet bills.

 

Thanks again

Best Regards,

Gregg

PS, after you posted the Lonsdale link a few weeks back, I sent it to all of our puppy owners. Most were already feeding raw, and I think it’s lit a fire under the stragglers.

Great stuff!

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=pro...39;1246'%5D

The link for the EVO

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Rainmaker

A great thread, as for the works wonder book downloaded it a fewweeks back. one Question I have is chicken mince from a poultry processing farm classed as rmb or meat as it contains bone and what ever else they through in there. :)

 

rozesky

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Gregg,

 

That's great! I hope your action in sending the link out prompts some people to switch over to RMBs etc, pets lives depend on it.

 

rezesky (Hi J :) ), mince is mince. RMBs are RMBs. If it is in any way altered from the natural state (i.e. doesn't much look like it belongs on a carcase) it isn't an RMB.

 

Good RMBs include meaty rib racks, necks, backs, tails, and in come cases legs etc.

 

If the food is minced, the teeth aren't getting cleaned at all. Mince and any ground food (such as those ridiculous barf "patties") will slime the gum-line with food particles, creating the same breeding grounds for plaque, tartar and ultimately periodontal disease that kibble and canned will.

 

By all means use mince as a treat on an occasional basis, but just like kids with sweets its best to have them brush their teeth straight afterwards (i.e. feed a whole RMB). The crushing, shearing, tearing actions involved in physically having to rip up and eat a raw meaty bone cleans teeth wonderfully, like no other.

 

It's nature's way of keeping the carnivore's tools in perfect working order. Use it or lose it. A raw diet based around mince - even whole carcase mince - is only half way there. The ingredients are important but the physical form and texture is equally important as this is what cleans the teeth.

 

One without the other is equally conducive to disease development, and ultimately early death for the unfortunate animal.

 

I hope this has answered your question mate,

Cheers

 

Lee :)

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Sorry i found this thread late in life but for my twopeennys worth i feed em mostly Chicken wings raw of course this helps with the digestion who ever thought veg played a part in the dogs diet needs f**ing right off they are mad to the point of insainity!!!

The old bollox about Wolfs is just that!

Dogs may nibble a nettle or browse a berry but rest assured they eat meat end off!

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Very good thread, but does feeding tripe, the sort you buy frozen from pet shops to a pup really give bone problems later in life?

or give any other kind of problems? :(

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Very good thread, but does feeding tripe, the sort you buy frozen from pet shops to a pup really give bone problems later in life?

or give any other kind of problems? :(

 

Well, I'm sure the pet food manufacturers would like you to believe so. However I know of absolutely no problems with it. In fact, tripe has a perfect Ca:P ratio and is high in nutrition in a useable form; experts reckon that dogs could live on tripe alone and not much else. Course there's the tooth cleaning issue and so on, but the point being made is it's good tucka nutritionally :D

 

I'll dig a reference out to some studies on that if you're interested?

 

Best thing though, is to feed tripe (large chunks/whole tripe where possible) as part of a varied balanced diet. That is, whole carcases where possible, raw meaty bones and offal etc. Odd table scraps won't do any harm but aside from the carcases (and materials of direct carcase origin - rmbs, offal etc) it's all just treats/filler. Not necessary.

 

What are you feeding? (as in what animals; though if you feel like posting your dietary regime feel free!).

Cheers,

 

Lee

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I am feeding raw meat quite a lot of tripe in a week and mixing J.wellbeloved turkey and rice kibble, my pup is 5months old has a lovely shiny coat and more energy than me and my kids can tire :11:

what do you reckon ?

Edited by RatSnatcher

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Guest Ditch_Shitter

Well; One Very happy Ditch Shitter reporting back to say I've now cracked it! Some Hunt's snaffling up all the local Abi' turns out. I had to give up on the tripe. But that made me think harder and now I have my hooks into about four differant Butchers in town. I'm paying about ten euro's for as much fantastic gear as I can barely lug away with me! I go into town and fill my holdall to bursting. And this is 100% Human Grade, fresh from the carcass stuff too.

 

In fact, I'm finding myself able to stock up on even more than my lot can eat and am starting to get a tad nervous about the space in my small freezer! :icon_eek: My Dogs have liturally never had it so good!

 

And to think I was paying a small fortune for minced scraps and scrag end rubbish, with tons of pure, waste fat slung in too - to save him paying to get rid of the stuff!

 

F***ing Sorted! :D:good:

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Well; One Very happy Ditch Shitter reporting back to say I've now cracked it! Some Hunt's snaffling up all the local Abi' turns out. I had to give up on the tripe. But that made me think harder and now I have my hooks into about four differant Butchers in town. I'm paying about ten euro's for as much fantastic gear as I can barely lug away with me! I go into town and fill my holdall to bursting. And this is 100% Human Grade, fresh from the carcass stuff too.

 

In fact, I'm finding myself able to stock up on even more than my lot can eat and am starting to get a tad nervous about the space in my small freezer! :icon_eek: My Dogs have liturally never had it so good!

 

And to think I was paying a small fortune for minced scraps and scrag end rubbish, with tons of pure, waste fat slung in too - to save him paying to get rid of the stuff!

 

F***ing Sorted! :D:good:

 

Glad to hear, DS - nice one! :yahoo:

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ive always fed my dogs minced beef and brown bread with a touch of honey and an egg coats are diffrent class,

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With regard the issue of vegetables please find a quote from the book give your dog a bone by dr ian billinghurst an australian vet.

 

Because dogs are omnivours,vegetables,particularily green leafy vegetables should form a substantial part of their diet.They are not essential however.Dogs can live and survive wiyhout such fare.There is only one problem.Their lives will be short,disease-ridden,and pianfull.In other words,vegetables are essential fir a dogs health.It is impossible for a dog to be totally healthy unless it spends a life time eating vegatables as a major part of its diet.

 

Looking at this from another perspective,while dogs cannot live successfully on a meat only diet,al dogs will thrive on a properly constructed vegetarian diet.Not that I am trying to promote canine vegetarianism.I make this piont because most peole think of dogs as carnivores.That is a non-vegatable eating animals.Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

There is in depth information in this book with regard what exactly dogs obtain from vegetables and the state it needs to be fed in for dogs to obtain any benefit.

 

 

Dr Ian Billinghurst has produced 3 books Give Your Dog A Bone, The Barf Diet,Grow Your Pups With Bones.I would strongly advice anyone looking to feed the barf diet to purchase these books.

There is in deph information on what to feed and why.The sections on vitamin and mineral requirements is better than any other book i have read.

A large amount of information on this site regarding this subject seems to be personal opinion and not fact based.

Read the books.

Any benefit from feeding barf is seriously undermined if the diet is not balanced.

Without the knowledge I have gained from the books I would have been like many other people feeding a diet which would be lacking in some way.

If any one is aware of any other good books on this subject could they post the details.

Edited by budgie123

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