How much Bull ?

[Brummy 9]

Just thinking about this after discussing it with a good mate of mine. How much bull is enough for you in your dogs? We all know that bull blood gives that edge and guts and the willingness to push on where other dogs might wimp out. However, what is the smallest ammount of bull before you start to loose the edge you sought in the first place.

I've heard it said that like the collie gene, the bull "gene" if you like is very strong and will surface in your dog even if added in the most minute ammount, say 1/16 for instance.

 

Any thoughts chaps?

[Guest reload]

Genetics, heavy stuff

Its like the lottery

 

The strongest gene or Predominant gene is the greyhound or sighthound, line breeding is the way surely to keep the bits you want, IE: bull attitude and power but not the bad feet.

[Guest chilli]

0 % ??

 

Depends what you want to run an how you want to do it !! if it were deer only i wouldnt bother with bull blood id stick to something like some of the ne lads have , but for a general all round dog half cross is nice or up to 1/4 bull 3/4 grey .

[Brummy 9]

Fair comment mate. i think what I'm getting at here though is the "gameness" angle. How little bull is needed to maintain the Dead Game characteristic ?

[Guest reload]

Fair comment mate. i think what I'm getting at here though is the "gameness" angle. How little bull is needed to maintain the Dead Game characteristic ?

 

Surely it depend on the dog as a individual. Gentics is a lottery. Line breed. You cant garantee a 1/4 will be game, but a line of game dogs put to a line of game dogs will give you better chance. But you may still get those feet.

 

Dogs aint a exact science.....

 

Sure some of the pro bullx members can explain all, better.

[Stabs 2]

When I was looking to get a bull cross a couple of years ago, I looked about for 1/4 bull but would have settled for 3/8. It all depends on how they chuck really. Gameness in the bull sense is lost the moment you cross. I don't think you can fault greys and whippets gameness (different sense of the word this time) but I think the bull adds that desire, that inability to feel pain to the point of loving it, the physical strength and structure that enables them to work fox after fox, night after night.

 

Personally, I'd go for what I've stated above. I've seen racy half crosses, especially some of the 2nd generation stuff (just look at some of Turks dogs) but I'd never go over half.

JMO

[Guest trev]

Fair comment mate. i think what I'm getting at here though is the "gameness" angle. How little bull is needed to maintain the Dead Game characteristic ?

 

 

Brummy the "DEAD GAME" phrase is thrown around very loosley these days, i mean what would a lurcher need to be dead game for, or better still what game would it meet to actually make it a dead game dog.????

The only thing that will make your lurcher dead game is it hitting a wall at full speed or some kind of similar accident, there is nothing to hunt to test a lurcher to its full potentiol, that being taking it to its death.

I beleive the more you add something else to the bull blood the the more you dilute the gameness of the bull blooded dog, however, i also beleive that you only need a small amount of the right bull blood added to the right greyhound or running dog to make it game enough to with stand the test of a lurcher, which isnt really a test imo.

A 60/70lb bullx or any cross for that matter against an animal of say 30/40lb is not something you can honestly say is a test, it may make some dogs quit, but imo its not the bull% thats quiting its something else, if you need more bull% in the dog like a reverse 3/4 then you may aswell use a bulldog, and again a bulldog from the right stuff against the same animal isnt really at test as the bulldog should be to much for anything it meets in the feild.

 

So imo, and im not trying to knock you, the term "dead Game" isnt a term id associate with lurchers.

Now getting back to your origional question of how much bull blood??

Alot depends on the bull blood your using and the quality of running dog used aswell.

I will post a pick of a dog made up of the right ingredients, he is 1/4 bull, his father was a first x bull and his mother was first x saluki/grey.

This is without doubt the meanest dog ive ever seen in the feild, he has a bite like an alligator and he has been tested as hard as a lurcher can be tested imo, he still retrives rabbits live to hand, i dont think this dog will ever quit as he has the measure of everything that he is asked to take, he does so in as quick and proffesional a manner as a decent slaughter man would.

 

 

 

So taking into consideration he has a 1/4 percentage of bull i beleive that other dogs made up of the same perantage wouldnt be half the dog he is as they wouldnt be made up from the right dogs.

Now it takes me onto the next bit, he has been bred to a wheaten x grey with a bit of deerhound back in her ancestory, the pups are going well, although still young one of the sons is shaping up into a dog similar to his father, he has done all thats asked of him and still wants more, so thats only1/8 bull, i beleive if he was mated back to a decent bitch with no bull blood the results would be the same.

 

Its a good subject and its one ive thought about alot, im not a huge fan of the bullx as i have had dogs that can do the same as bullx without any bull in their make up, however in saying that i would still own one if it did all i asked off.

Perhaps selective breeding has alot more to do with it than the percentage of bull blood.

 

Food for thought perhaps??? :whistle:

[Brummy 9]

Perhaps " all out balls" would have been better terminology Trev and I take your point about the term "dead game" being misused in this instance and most others . The bull gene has it's undoubted uses but maybe the most important gene of all is the "game" gene in whatever dogs we run Obviously a pure bull has only one true apponent on this earth but as in all hunting debates it comes round to the same old adage..... "horses for courses"..........

 

Interesting stuff

[Guest Nightwalker]

Just thinking about this after discussing it with a good mate of mine. How much bull is enough for you in your dogs? We all know that bull blood gives that edge and guts and the willingness to push on where other dogs might wimp out. However, what is the smallest ammount of bull before you start to loose the edge you sought in the first place.

I've heard it said that like the collie gene, the bull "gene" if you like is very strong and will surface in your dog even if added in the most minute ammount, say 1/16 for instance.

 

Any thoughts chaps?

 

 

0% bull is perfect for me.

[dirtydawg 0]

Fair comment mate. i think what I'm getting at here though is the "gameness" angle. How little bull is needed to maintain the Dead Game characteristic ?

 

 

Brummy the "DEAD GAME" phrase is thrown around very loosley these days, i mean what would a lurcher need to be dead game for, or better still what game would it meet to actually make it a dead game dog.????

The only thing that will make your lurcher dead game is it hitting a wall at full speed or some kind of similar accident, there is nothing to hunt to test a lurcher to its full potentiol, that being taking it to its death.

I beleive the more you add something else to the bull blood the the more you dilute the gameness of the bull blooded dog, however, i also beleive that you only need a small amount of the right bull blood added to the right greyhound or running dog to make it game enough to with stand the test of a lurcher, which isnt really a test imo.

A 60/70lb bullx or any cross for that matter against an animal of say 30/40lb is not something you can honestly say is a test, it may make some dogs quit, but imo its not the bull% thats quiting its something else, if you need more bull% in the dog like a reverse 3/4 then you may aswell use a bulldog, and again a bulldog from the right stuff against the same animal isnt really at test as the bulldog should be to much for anything it meets in the feild.

 

So imo, and im not trying to knock you, the term "dead Game" isnt a term id associate with lurchers.

Now getting back to your origional question of how much bull blood??

Alot depends on the bull blood your using and the quality of running dog used aswell.

I will post a pick of a dog made up of the right ingredients, he is 1/4 bull, his father was a first x bull and his mother was first x saluki/grey.

This is without doubt the meanest dog ive ever seen in the feild, he has a bite like an alligator and he has been tested as hard as a lurcher can be tested imo, he still retrives rabbits live to hand, i dont think this dog will ever quit as he has the measure of everything that he is asked to take, he does so in as quick and proffesional a manner as a decent slaughter man would.

 

 

 

 

So taking into consideration he has a 1/4 percentage of bull i beleive that other dogs made up of the same perantage wouldnt be half the dog he is as they wouldnt be made up from the right dogs.

Now it takes me onto the next bit, he has been bred to a wheaten x grey with a bit of deerhound back in her ancestory, the pups are going well, although still young one of the sons is shaping up into a dog similar to his father, he has done all thats asked of him and still wants more, so thats only1/8 bull, i beleive if he was mated back to a decent bitch with no bull blood the results would be the same.

 

Its a good subject and its one ive thought about alot, im not a huge fan of the bullx as i have had dogs that can do the same as bullx without any bull in their make up, however in saying that i would still own one if it did all i asked off.

Perhaps selective breeding has alot more to do with it than the percentage of bull blood.

 

Food for thought perhaps??? :whistle:

good write up trev ,i enjoyed reading it,and heres me thinking you were only into greyhounds mate

[J Darcy 5,871]

I think perhaps, rather than the % of bull, the quality of that bull blood is more important. I would rather have 1/16 of grand champion blood than 15/16 of the run of the mill shit that seem to make up a good number of bullX's these days. Then again, it depends on what the owner wants hid bullX for...just rabbits/hares/deer...dont matter how game the dog is IMHO, but if you expect the dog to kill toothy critters single handed without any human intervention, then gameness does matter....JMHO...great thread

[Guest chilli]

id rather have bull blood from a dog that is hunting well finding gear on its own an killing it than from a dod breed bull .

[midnight 657]

in the bull world there are dogs tested holding CH status that are noted as producers.

they are rear !!!

 

in an ideal world we would all run dogs from lines that are tryed and tested . as part of that anything that was rased tested and found wanting would be killed as in the bull world.

we would all choose proven producers .

 

this is not unherd of in lurcher as with the saluki lads and there corsing hounds.

 

 

its a real deep CLASsIC argument this one about gamnes that will runn for another 400 years im sure.

 

 

as for bull blood in lurchers i cant real comment as i have had to littel contact with them .

i know from the only litter i bred there are good and bad amongst them. game and not so.

i KNOW the stud dog (bull half) was about as good as most will ever see in there lifes .

and the bitch was very very good to but again game in another sence .

 

the way to improve chance of game pups would be mother son mating or brother sister.

 

but im sure that will never happen as i dont actualy on one.

[Kye 77]

There are Coyote hunters over here, who can take as many as 30+ in a weekend...none of there dogs carry Bull blood, or at the MOST, 1/18...im sure there are some that added a Bull hybrid about 10 genertaions back, but that it...the Bull hybrid is used over here, but for catching pigs...the cross is quite popular in Texas for catching lamped, feral swine i think!?..

Kye,..

[BULLWHIP 0]

WHAT YOU NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IS WHAT ELSE IS IN BREED ? SUCH AS COLLIE COS IF IT THROWS THAT WAY THEN YOU COULD BE IN TROUBLE COS THEY DO JACK THEM BRAINY BAST...DS.MATE HAD ONE BULLX COLLIE GREYHOUND AS IT GOT OLDER IT STOPPED RUNNING FAR SLIPS AND ONLY GRABBED FOXES IF IT COULD GET THEM BY BACK OF HEAD MOST ENDED UP GETTING AWAY.MY OPINION ONLY .

Edited September 30, 2007 by BULLWHIP