12 bore shot guns heavy

[tom1cameron 1]

Spiderpig, it is good to have this natter as there are too many myths out there on the difference between whether a shotgun calibre can or could be lethal. As I said, if you can consistantly (9/10) place several pellets from a 28g load of 6's from a 20g on the head, neck and upper breast of pheasant beyond 35-40yds or if you never shoot at longer range quarry then you go for it.

 

Only 30% of hunters tested, recently in both the UK, US and Denmark could consistently hit 8/10 crossing clays at 30yds.

I'm not that confident in my shooting either so I will err on the side of caution out of consideration for my quarry and stick with a 12g as most of my hunting is dealing with birds that include 30-45 yds shots.

 

quite ofter it is only 1 or 2 pellets which actually hit a bird and ill it,a pellet from a 12 .20,or even a 410 is traveling at the same speed and energy if they are the same size,

 

Not so, only if they are travelling on their own, each gun has it's own ballistics properties in terms of drag and surface area to the shot cloud etc etc. The speed and energy of each of those pellets that hit the bird is dependent on the behaviour of the pellets in the rest of the cloud.

 

Also, if only a small number of pellets make that kill, most are "wasted", therefore pellet counts are very important. Pattern a 12g vs 20g game load (same shot size but 32 vs 28gm) in a 30" circle at 30 and 40yds and look at the difference

 

yes a 12 has more powder but contains a heavier load,therfore les powder and lighter load euals the same balistics

 

Wrong. Velocity perhaps, but not Ballistics

 

 

,its only the pattern that is dffernt and a small gauge has a smaller pattern but a longer string so if you can hit them then you can often achive better kills than that of a 12,if i was shooting large game though i.e foxes ect i would stick to a 12 allday long.but smaller calibres are no more or less leathal than than there larger partners.

 

Is that not what I just said, take your quarry into account, both calibres are lethal, but they have differences on larger quarry at longer distances? For me this includes pheasants, ducks and geese.

 

To quote another magazine "I am sure a 410 load of 7.5's could kill a giant canada goose at 10 yds but that is not the question we are dealing with"

Edited November 28, 2008 by tom1cameron

[spiderpig 39]

Spiderpig, it is good to have this natter as there are too many myths out there on the difference between whether a shotgun calibre can or could be lethal. As I said, if you can consistantly (9/10) place several pellets from a 28g load of 6's from a 20g on the head, neck and upper breast of pheasant beyond 35-40yds or if you never shoot at longer range quarry then you go for it.

 

Only 30% of hunters tested, recently in both the UK, US and Denmark could consistently hit 8/10 crossing clays at 30yds.

I'm not that confident in my shooting either so I will err on the side of caution out of consideration for my quarry and stick with a 12g as most of my hunting is dealing with birds that include 30-45 yds shots.

 

quite ofter it is only 1 or 2 pellets which actually hit a bird and ill it,a pellet from a 12 .20,or even a 410 is traveling at the same speed and energy if they are the same size,

 

Not so, only if they are travelling on their own, each gun has it's own ballistics properties in terms of drag and surface area to the shot cloud etc etc. The speed and energy of each of those pellets that hit the bird is dependent on the behaviour of the pellets in the rest of the cloud.

 

Also, if only a small number of pellets make that kill, most are "wasted", therefore pellet counts are very important. Pattern a 12g vs 20g game load (same shot size but 32 vs 28gm) in a 30" circle at 30 and 40yds and look at the difference

 

yes a 12 has more powder but contains a heavier load,therfore les powder and lighter load euals the same balistics

 

Wrong. Velocity perhaps, but not Ballistics

 

 

,its only the pattern that is dffernt and a small gauge has a smaller pattern but a longer string so if you can hit them then you can often achive better kills than that of a 12,if i was shooting large game though i.e foxes ect i would stick to a 12 allday long.but smaller calibres are no more or less leathal than than there larger partners.

 

Is that not what I just said, take your quarry into account, both calibres are lethal, but they have differences on larger quarry at longer distances? For me this includes pheasants, ducks and geese.

 

To quote another magazine "I am sure a 410 load of 7.5's could kill a giant canada goose at 10 yds but that is not the question we are dealing with"

i do see where you are coming from. you mean for mos of the shooters out there they need as much pattern and power as they can get? without taking the piss out of them if you understand. as i suppose most people are average joes in the standard of shooting.

 

i do shoot a 410 and nothing else now really and i would say i could hit anything anyone else can with a 12 and probably more,thats why i sitck up for small calibres i suppose as to me they are the bees knees and takes a lot off marksmanship to do something a fella with a 12 could do easy.

 

as for the 8/10 crossers that has supprised me as i thought it would be even lower than that! if i didnt shoot 10/10 with the 410 id prbably cry,lol

[tom1cameron 1]

With a 410, you are in more of a hit or miss situation......so I would ask that if You can kill as effectively as a 12g at some stated range but do you really do it as often in the field as someone with a 12g?

 

Again, thanks for the natter, once again this forum has led to me doing b*****-all work this afternoon. Nothing new there then!

 

Best go and collect the sprogs from child minder, will try and get back on sometime over weekend.

Edited November 28, 2008 by tom1cameron

[tom1cameron 1]

With a 410, you are in more of a hit or miss situation......so I would ask that you can kill as effectively as a 12g at some stated range but do you really do it as often in the field?

 

Again, thanks for the natter, once again this forum has led to me doing b*****-all work this afternoon. Nothing new there then!

 

Best go and collect the sprog from child minder, will try and get back on sometime over weekend.

Edited November 28, 2008 by tom1cameron

[spiderpig 39]

With a 410, you are in more of a hit or miss situation......so I would ask that you can kill as effectively as a 12g at some stated range but do you really do it as often in the field?

 

Again, thanks for the natter, once again this forum has led to me doing b*****-all work this afternoon. Nothing new there then!

 

Best go and collect the sprog from child minder, will try and get back on sometime over weekend.

thats jst where im going now!!

 

yes thanks and no work done for me either

 

im just a big fan of the 410 thats all,im sponsored by hull cartridge with fiocchi shells for the 410 competitions and i just love the challenge and to be different

[Deker 3,459]

And I suppose you don't belive in Santa either. Tut tut

 

It is on shot size, velocity, energy, shot count, choke, barrell length, load

The data are in mixed places from your own software you can download from various US universities/private locations (as the UK is too tight to support any research of this type but there is a good group at Cranfield), you could speak to various Ballistics specialists at proof houses. Some of the data has come from the UK via BASC and some of those results are published in their annual reviews, but they are still working on 20g so it is not published yet. But I can assure you it is interesting so far and it will confirm what I am saying.

 

If you really want to see the science go and look for it. Most of the best information is US based and led by CONSEP and their consultants. There data given minimum pellet counts by load and shot size for various metallic shot types at different ranges and it is clear that 20g runs out of steam before 12g and 12g before 10g order to meet the, and I stress this, "90% likely lethality at range".

 

What that means is, if you are actually good enough to fire at 100 crossing ducks each at 50yds and hit those vital areas every time. 90% lethality is less likely using a 20g than a 12g as on average 20g loads have lower energy and shot counts and shot sizes than what 12g game carts have. Like for like they have less energy and shot counts. Sure if you use the same load weight and shot size and powder to fire them all at the same velocity in a 12g and a 20g, then you overcome this problem, but you will have a very sore nose and shoulder!

 

CONSEP lethality tables are difficult to come by but you can find them in several US state hunting handbooks (print versions only as the tables are copyrighted). The data is genuine and based on up to 22000 live quarry shots, observations and dissections (that is for steel).

 

Remember science is not about 100% proof, it is about probability.

 

ANYWAY the point was about whether to buy a 20g and I think the gentleman has already made up his mind.

20g is not a match for, but a very good alternative to a 12g for hunting larger quarry. My points were only to stress not to make the decision without considering the size, range and speed of your quarry when you normally shoot at it.

 

Best wishes

Dr Tom

 

quite ofter it is only 1 or 2 pellets which actually hit a bird and ill it,a pellet from a 12 .20,or even a 410 is traveling at the same speed and energy if they are the same size,yes a 12 has more powder but contains a heavier load,therfore les powder and lighter load euals the same balistics,its only the pattern that is dffernt and a small gauge has a smaller pattern but a longer string so if you can hit them then you can often achive better kills than that of a 12,if i was shooting large game though i.e foxes ect i would stick to a 12 allday long.but smaller calibres are no more or less leathal than than there larger partners.

 

 

Sorry guys...I can't resist it..................

[SportingShooter 0]

I'll stick to shooting them with the same load i've always done, and always killed with (not everytime, thats not what I mean, but never let me down if you get me?)

 

Science, Statistics, Figures, Shot Size, Velocity, Energy, etc etc etc All has its place, and i've done a lot of work through the use of it. I just don't understand the need for ruling things out to such a small percentage.

 

I shoot, as a personal preference and rule, 28gr No.7 (At the moment, Eley VIP FITASC) through my 12. When I had the 20, I shot 28gr No.7 (Hull Stirling Fibre.) Now I don't want an argument over shot size as no one will ever win it, it IS personal preference.

 

But I think what you have both said, behind all of the posts, facts and figures, is that it is the man behind the gun that makes the exception to the rule That theme seems to be recurring in this just recently :blink:

 

I hope no one takes offense

 

SS

 

P.S Tom, I had a 20 as my first too An old AYA that had done the rounds, did me to start me off though