The Empire Strikes Back - CANZUK

[Born Hunter 17,974]

This has been talked about before but this is the first time I've seen it laid out.

I'd certainly like to see a closer relationship between Anglosphere nations, it just makes sense and it's a f***ing shame things were neglected for so many decades given the citizens clearly feel bonded culturally.

[chartpolski 28,671]

EU membership badly affected our trade relations with the "Anglosphere".

EU tariffs and protectionism on goods from those countries, and others, meant we couldn't get the best deals.

Now we are free from the EU shackles, we can do our own trade deals and goods from those countries should get cheaper.

Cheers.

[Born Hunter 17,974]

10 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

EU membership badly affected our trade relations with the "Anglosphere".

EU tariffs and protectionism on goods from those countries, and others, meant we couldn't get the best deals.

Now we are free from the EU shackles, we can do our own trade deals and goods from those countries should get cheaper.

Cheers.

Indeed, rightly or wrongly we threw in with our neighbours at the expense of our family and freedom generally. But the question here is would the muted CANZUK Union, in whatever form that might take, be the way forward with our Anglosphere family? Or should we keep things 'strictly business' like we will with much of the rest of the world?

I've never been against political union, we are after all part of one right now. What I was opposed to in the EU was the union of such different nations. We were too different for my liking which was the cause of every problem.

Also perhaps union is a step too far for CANZUK but rather a closer political relationship of equals. I can think of a lot of scope for that, especially in a new era of global power struggles.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Born Hunter

[chartpolski 28,671]

1 minute ago, Born Hunter said:

Indeed, rightly or wrongly we threw in with our neighbours at the expense of our family and freedom generally. But the question here is would the muted CANZUK Union, in whatever form that might take, be the way forward with our Anglosphere family? Or should we just keep things to business like much of the rest of the world?

I've never been against political union, we are after all part of one right now. What I was opposed to in the EU was the union of such different nations. We were too different for my liking which was the cause of every problem.

Also perhaps union is a step too far for CANZUK but rather a closer political relationship of equals. I can think of a lot of scope for that, especially in a new era of global power struggles.

Why would it need to be a political union ?

When we joined the EU, it was a trading union, and I see nothing wrong in that.

Then the federalists started introducing more and more political union, and the individual countries handed over more and more sovereignty, until the EU became far more of a supranational entity than a trading block.

If we do form a "CANZUK", we won't have our laws made by NZ, Canadian judges won't be able to over rule our judges, Australia won't decide our fishing or agricultural policies.

NAFTA works well as a trading block, with no loss of sovereignty by the member countries, "CANZUCK" could follow the same model.

Cheers.

[Born Hunter 17,974]

1 minute ago, chartpolski said:

Why would it need to be a political union ?

Why does the UK need to be a political union?

Political unification brings about efficiency and capability. It's literally the point in any sort of centralised government on any level.

3 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

If we do form a "CANZUK", we won't have our laws made by NZ, Canadian judges won't be able to over rule our judges, Australia won't decide our fishing or agricultural policies.

NAFTA works well as a trading block, with no loss of sovereignty by the member countries, "CANZUCK" could follow the same model.

Cheers.

I'll put you down on the no union list. 

[chartpolski 28,671]

2 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

Why does the UK need to be a political union?

Political unification brings about efficiency and capability. It's literally the point in any sort of centralised government on any level.

I'll put you down on the no union list. 

We have a centralised government in Westminster. Why did we need another, more powerful one in Brussels ?

Trading blocks don't need political union, they are normally different types of governments with different economies, voting systems, etc.

"One size fits all" was/is the greatest failing of the EU. Germany and France are poles ,( no pun intended), apart economically, manufacturing, politically, from, say Greece and Romania.

The Euro works well for Germany, not so well for Greece.

Cheers.

[Born Hunter 17,974]

51 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

We have a centralised government in Westminster. Why did we need another, more powerful one in Brussels ?

Trading blocks don't need political union, they are normally different types of governments with different economies, voting systems, etc.

"One size fits all" was/is the greatest failing of the EU. Germany and France are poles ,( no pun intended), apart economically, manufacturing, politically, from, say Greece and Romania.

The Euro works well for Germany, not so well for Greece.

Cheers.

And before Westminster became the centralised government for the union of kingdoms (UK), we had a centralised government that was the result of England's constituent kingdoms (the seven Anglo Saxon kingdoms) unifying. I mean how far do you want to take this back? Unification isn't good or bad in itself. We can show good examples and bad examples.

I assume you think any kind of CANZUK political unification is bad. I haven't made my mind up which is why I posted this thread.

I'm 100% up for greater political cooperation, an alliance. But perhaps Union is too soon to even consider.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Born Hunter

[chartpolski 28,671]

51 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

And before Westminster became the centralised government for the union of kingdoms (UK), we had a centralised government that was the result of England's constituent kingdoms (the seven Anglo Saxon kingdoms) unifying. I mean how far do you want to take this back? Unification isn't good or bad in itself. We can show good examples and bad examples.

I assume you think any kind of CANZUK political unification is bad. I haven't made my mind up which is why I posted this thread.

I'm 100% up for greater political cooperation, an alliance. But perhaps Union is too soon to even consider.

I simply think trading unions are simple and effective, no need for political union.

Giving up, or sharing sovereignty, as has been seen with Brexit, leads to animosity, mistrust and anger, especially if those taking the sovereignty are unelected.

I DO think we should have closer relations with the Anglosphere and the commonwealth.

We ARE politically connected to the Anglo world to a certain extent, the "five eyes", comes to mind, and we are all western democracies, but the political union such as the EU has, and is hell bent on furthering, is a complete anathema to me.

Cheers.

[Born Hunter 17,974]

3 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

I simply think trading unions are simple and effective, no need for political union.

Giving up, or sharing sovereignty, as has been seen with Brexit, leads to animosity, mistrust and anger, especially if those taking the sovereignty are unelected.

I DO think we should have closer relations with the Anglosphere and the commonwealth.

We ARE politically connected to the Anglo world to a certain extent, the "five eyes", comes to mind, and we are all western democracies, but the political union such as the EU has, and is hell bent on furthering, is a complete anathema to me.

Cheers.

Why is the EU bad and the UK good though? Why would a CANZUK union necessarily be like the EU rather than the UK?

Five eyes is one of the examples of how well we can work together. It's interesting to discuss how we might take that further...

As I said, I'm certainly in favour of a closer and stronger CANZUK relationship. Much more than just trade deals. But maybe not as far as political unification. I'd like to see the four nations become a household name of political force/allies. I'd like to see the nations turn to each other first on international matters, such is the trust and dependability that is developed. I think the foundations of NATO is weak these days and so smaller more certain military alliances that are based on the same principles have benefit. There's tons of scope between 'trade deal' and 'full political unification' imo.

[chartpolski 28,671]

15 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

Why is the EU bad and the UK good though? Why would a CANZUK union necessarily be like the EU rather than the UK?

Five eyes is one of the examples of how well we can work together. It's interesting to discuss how we might take that further...

As I said, I'm certainly in favour of a closer and stronger CANZUK relationship. Much more than just trade deals. But maybe not as far as political unification. I'd like to see the four nations become a household name of political force/allies. I'd like to see the nations turn to each other first on international matters, such is the trust and dependability that is developed. I think the foundations of NATO is weak these days and so smaller more certain military alliances that are based on the same principles have benefit. There's tons of scope between 'trade deal' and 'full political unification' imo.

I'm not sure what you're asking me that I haven't already answered.

The UK is in many alliances that are not political unions.

Your question as to why the EU is bad and the UK is good is a bit strange. I'm a citizen of the UK, i vote for politicians in the UK.

I dont want to be a citizen of the EU and have no say in who is my "President"

I want my country to be a sovereign, independent nation.

I want the laws of the UK made and implementedby UK politicians and judiciary.

Surely the EU vax fiasco shows why we are better off out ?

As even UVDL said, the EU is like a tanker, the U.K. Is like a speedboat.

When 27 countries have to come to an agreement, they are like a convoy that can only move at the speed of the slowest ship.

But, reading by your replies, I don't think we are very far apart on "political  union"

Cheers.

Edited February 9, 2021 by chartpolski

[Born Hunter 17,974]

Just now, chartpolski said:

I'm not sure what you're asking me that I haven't already answered.

The UK is in many alliances that are not political unions.

Your question as to why the EU is bad and the UK is good is a bit strange. I'm a citizen of the UK, i vote for politicians in the UK.

You have written off a proposed CANZUK union because of your experience with another political union, the EU. But you support another political union, the United Kingdom. My question is why would CANZUK be the disaster that the acts of unification that made the EU is and not the success the acts of unification that made the UK is? The EU and the UK were both created by separate acts of political unification. Simply comparing the proposed CANZUK union to the EU is a straw man, why not compare it to any number of other examples of political union, i.e. the UK?

We do probably agree yes, I just don't think it's fair to simply use our experience in the EU as the sole reason, given our experience in a different political union, the UK, has been so good. It strikes me as on obvious fallacy.

[chartpolski 28,671]

As much as I enjoy our reparte', I fear this conversation is going round in circles .

Suffice to say, I think a trade agreement and close cooperation on security, etc, with the Anglosphere is a good idea.

Political uninon with them is not.

These are my views and opinions, but I respect any views others may have even if I may disagree with them.

Cheers.

 

[Lenmcharristar 10,395]

Its great, for most of the plantations are our own peoples anyway, with the same beliefs and hard working ethics so hopefully its a great thing