First time Shotgun application refusal

[Bill Green 0]

I’m hoping this is in the correct forum section but apologies if it’s not.

Having been inolved in both Game & Clay shooting for a couple of years now I was persuaded to apply for a Shotgun Licence.  

I’ve professional experience of using  Fire Arms from service with the British Military & have spent a further 25 years working with the Emergency Services during which time I’ve never been in trouble but had a disclosable medical condition that was correctly recorded on my application then expanded upon by GP & Specialist reports to support the application.

A week after submitting my application I was involved in an altercation with my (nearly) 18 year old son then arrested for assault. This went no where as not only was it a case of self defence but he didn’t want to make a complaint in the first place (the Police had been informed by a Third person).

At this time I spoke with my local Fire Arms Licensing Department who informed me that as long as the matter wasn’t being progressed (which it wasn’t) and my application was supported by my GP & Specialist regarding my medical condition & safety to posses a Shot Gun (which it was),  the only thing that might be an issue was if I wished to store my weapons at home, should my Son be living there aswell. So despite my Son having moved out, on my home visit I informed the Licensing Officer I planned to store my Shot Gun at a friends (who already possess both SGs & FAs).

Fast forward three & a half months and I’ve just received a letter informing me my application is being refused as The Police are not satisfied I can possess a Shot Gun without being a danger to Public safety.

There is no further explanation by the Police, timescales as to when they may be of a different opinion or anything to be honest, other than that I can appeal if I so wish but I would probably need Legal advice that could be very expensive. 

As someone with no previous experience in this area it seems very Big Brother &  harsh given the two medical opinions supporting my fitness to possess a shotgun, years of good character, and despite being arrested having had no legal action taken against me as there was no case to answer, that my application has been denied. 

Is the refusal worth appealing and if so any advice on how best to proceed would be greatly appreciated, (I’m not currently a member of any Hunting groups but do have legal cover).

Also is this sort of thing usual from Licensing Departments?

[Deker 3,478]

I rather think the way forward is some professional advice.

[Meece 1,958]

The basis for issuing a certificate is safety of the public and security of the weapon and ammunition in storage and use. Now there is this issue with the boy and a medical condition along with some sort of domestic problem.  you have to reverse the thought pattern and imagine you being asked to allow a stranger to have a gun which they might do terrible things with. I would seek to contact your firearms dept and ask for a reason why your application is being refused and why The Police are not satisfied you can possess a Shot Gun without being a danger to Public safety. now you have to decide if there is something that you are not disclosing to us that they are basing their decision on. Isn't this the same as a thread that has ben on here before ? Almost identical? 

[Bill Green 0]

Thanks Mecce for your response, and I certainly appreciate the point you make regarding issuing a weapon to a person whom they believe may cause harm to others. Also I will take your advice and contact the Licensing Department to see if they can provide me with any further information as to how they’ve come to their decision/conclusion as the letter I’ve received certainly gives no details.

There’s nothing further I’m not disclosing as from my perspective not providing the full facts, I suspect wouldn’t allow Posters here to offer advice/direction that may be of relavence and use to me.

I’ll have a look through the forum to see if I’m able to find the earlier thread you mentioned aswell.

[Meece 1,958]

Generally certs are issued without any problem. They may attach some restrictions or conditions but they don't just not issue for the fun of it. They don't know but you might be a multi millionaire who could afford to challenge it in court with top line Barristers and someone who would do this and blow their budget to fight it.  If they get put up against the wall and think that there is more than a 50% chance that they will loose they will issue and take the hit.  Last night I typed into the search above for "Refusal" and several threads from the past came up.  the main thing to do in this case is to not loose your cool and start using abusive or threatening language. before your contact them get a pen and paper and try to map out anything that could influence their decision.  the most likely thing is the boy.  if he is living in the home there is a possibility that he might do something silly even though you have lodged the guns elsewhere.  They might take a view that you might bring the weapon into the home instead of taking it elsewhere on the way to or from using it.  It's a bit late to say you weren't supposed to bring it here if sonny boy has shot someone with it.  This is just a possible idea. it could be anything but it will be something substantial.  you could ask for a meeting to discuss this.  if they decline you will have to put your hand in your pocket for legal advise or help from some org if you are a member.  who are you insured with?  you could pm this to me if it would help.  don't forget keep calm.

[Alsone 789]

I'm afraid you should have taken out insurance by joining the BASC before making your application.

You will be able to join now and you might be able to get some advice, however, they won't usually represent you for something that happened before you joined.

If refused, your option is to appeal the decision at Crown Court. However, you need to put together evidence to show the police made a wrong decision based on the evidence supplied. That won't be easy without some guidance. If you're lucky, someone like the BASC might still advise you on that. Beyond that, you're going to have to go to Court. Once a refusal is issued, the option is a Crown Court Appeal. The police will likely employ a Barrister and if you lose could hit you with costs which will be in the thousands. That's the risk. To that end you're in a better position if unemployed than if working as they're less likely to award costs. I'm also afraid being an ex-soldier often puts you in a worse position than a normal member of the public as some forces regard you as a high risk due to the incidence of PTSD.

Meece "generally certs are issued without any problem" - that depends very much on the force you're dealing with. Some forces are very anti-gun and will take any opportunity to refuse. Others, are much easier.  Such is the difference between forces.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Alsone

[Bill Green 0]

I took your advice Mecce & contacted my Licensing Department today, who wouldn't go into any further detail as to the refusal but proceeded to tell me as long as my circumstances remained the same (no change to medical history & no further Police interaction) if I re-applied in 12-15 months they'd be no reason to oppose a second application, They also stated that in the meantime there's no reason why I can't use other peoples weapons (within the constraints of Firearms legislation) if I want to shoot.

Whilst somewhat frustrating I don't have any urgent need to be in possession of my own shotgun immediately (I won't be losing a job opportunity etc.) so I'll follow their advice and re-apply next year. I'll make sure in the meantime to join BASC just incase any issues were to arise with a re-application but I'd like to think they'd keep to their word.

Thanks for taking the time to offer some advice guys.

[Alsone 789]

It might be still worth joining the BASC and taking advice now if you can afford the fees. If nothing else, you get magazines for the next couple of years and a cheaper new car if you buy one.

I suspect from what you've written above, it sounds as if the incident with your son is being used as the reason for denial unless your medical history is recent and only recently resolved, as they're clearly wanting distance between something and your application. I'm pretty sure you have a right to the reasons. Be aware, the refusal will stay on file and can count against you in future applications. My advice would be join the BASC, take formal advice from an expert, enjoy the magazines and see where it all leads you. 

[Meece 1,958]

5 hours ago, Alsone said:

It might be still worth joining the BASC and taking advice now if you can afford the fees. If nothing else, you get magazines for the next couple of years and a cheaper new car if you buy one.

I suspect from what you've written above, it sounds as if the incident with your son is being used as the reason for denial unless your medical history is recent and only recently resolved, as they're clearly wanting distance between something and your application. I'm pretty sure you have a right to the reasons. Be aware, the refusal will stay on file and can count against you in future applications. My advice would be join the BASC, take formal advice from an expert, enjoy the magazines and see where it all leads you. 

 

You might just as well burn your money as join basic. They ain't worth a rub. The magazines are junk adverts. you can get £12 million insurance  cover for dogs a d guns  all sorts. And help advice can be got from ccc3 for £30 and as for any help or opinion  you might get from basic you as well ask any passer by in the street.  If you look on the search for refusal you will see several posts by people who were members of basic and when contacted, basic declined to help them. I know of an underkeeper who applied for a c.f. rifle and basic wouldn't help him with a couple of simple queries  and other shooters also. £78 quid for what? If you go onto other shooting sites basic get burnt there also. They seem to operate In a twilight zone of make believe. If you want to join something  then consider SACS. They seem to get a good review. 

Ps. If you want a new car, CAR WOW blows those basc  deals out of the water because basc  take some of your potential savings out of the deal into their pocket. They aint organising a deal for nothing! 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Meece

[Meece 1,958]

10 hours ago, Bill Green said:

I took your advice Mecce & contacted my Licensing Department today, who wouldn't go into any further detail as to the refusal but proceeded to tell me as long as my circumstances remained the same (no change to medical history & no further Police interaction) if I re-applied in 12-15 months they'd be no reason to oppose a second application, They also stated that in the meantime there's no reason why I can't use other peoples weapons (within the constraints of Firearms legislation) if I want to shoot.

Whilst somewhat frustrating I don't have any urgent need to be in possession of my own shotgun immediately (I won't be losing a job opportunity etc.) so I'll follow their advice and re-apply next year. I'll make sure in the meantime to join BASC just incase any issues were to arise with a re-application but I'd like to think they'd keep to their word.

Thanks for taking the time to offer some advice guys.

It looks like there isnt anything wrong with you, or your application . It's probably the boy situation that they dont likely  and are putting a  bit of safe time into the equation.  3 angles. 1. You might not reapply. 2. No more problems and its all gone quiet on the home front . 3 if there are home front problems, they can say ..... we took a view and exercised due diligence which stopped a public incident.  You dont  neèd a gun to survive , its only for fun, so it isnt important.  If you were to write a letter stating that you didn't agree with that decision and were going to take it to court they would probably issue rather than incur their own legal costs. They aint got a pot to pjss in either. They know that generally the public back down and just blag it through. It would have to be pretty serious to get to court and there would be a discussion  about the situation before that happened.

[Alsone 789]

17 hours ago, Meece said:

You might just as well burn your money as join basic. They ain't worth a rub. The magazines are junk adverts. you can get £12 million insurance  cover for dogs a d guns  all sorts. And help advice can be got from ccc3 for £30 and as for any help or opinion  you might get from basic you as well ask any passer by in the street.  If you look on the search for refusal you will see several posts by people who were members of basic and when contacted, basic declined to help them. I know of an underkeeper who applied for a c.f. rifle and basic wouldn't help him with a couple of simple queries  and other shooters also. £78 quid for what? If you go onto other shooting sites basic get burnt there also. They seem to operate In a twilight zone of make believe. If you want to join something  then consider SACS. They seem to get a good review. 

Ps. If you want a new car, CAR WOW blows those basc  deals out of the water because basc  take some of your potential savings out of the deal into their pocket. They aint organising a deal for nothing! 

I have experience here. When I needed help, even though I wasn't a member when it all began, they gave me hours and hours of assistance, literally 30 or 40 hrs of free advice and help. It's a long time ago and maybe things have changed, but I'm very grateful for the help I received from the BASC. You also have to remember when reading about people's situations on forums, you don't know if they are disclosing everything. eg. It maybe they didn't receive help because the case lacked any merit. No insurer is going to pay out for costs on a case without reasonable prospects of success. Treat forums as hearsay. 

Nothing wrong with SACS so long as they still cover applications. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Alsone

[Deker 3,478]

This can/will go round and round and nobody here can resolve your issue, its back to square one, get some professional advice and fight the refusal, or sit back and wait in hope.