Firearms/ Shotgun Advice.....

[Dumpling 23]

Hi guys. Last year my shooting mate tony got into a spot of bother on new yrs eve. In the event that happened the police were called and he was arrested for a incident which involved his next door neighbour being hit as they wouldn't turn the music down after going round there on 3 occasions to tell them. Tony was taking away to the police station were he was locked up for the night. The following day a officer interviewed him and said no charges will be brought against him as the neighbour said that it was his fault and he didn't want tony to get into trouble for it, Tony was released without charge or caution and went on his way. Saturday 3rd jan tony had a visit from the armed response unit asking him to voluntarily to give up his weapons and ammo which he did without any hassle, The officers did not give tony a receipt for the items that were taken but the officer said he would have them back after a wk to 10 days later. The 9th of jan tony received a letter from firearms licensing asking him to contact his doctor for a medical report which he did and posted back to them, 2 months later he has not heard anything he rings firearms but just gets fobbed off he did speak to the manager once who was very arrogant and said his guns were taken away with his certificates as a precaution that he doesn't breech the peace and his file was with the Deputy chief constable for a decision. Can someone tell me then I can pass it on to tony, How long does it take for a breech of the peace to last?? Also can tony put a complaint in as he did not receive a receipt for the items that were seized?? And wasn't kept informed of the process involved. Tony has contacted BASC and they have said that they can be prosecuted for not following home office guidelines?? Any advice would be great guys as my mate is in the dark over this. Just to let you know he has never been in trouble with the police in his life and has no criminal record, Thanks all. Steve.

[clabedoo 59]

Hi guys. Last year my shooting mate tony got into a spot of bother on new yrs eve. In the event that happened the police were called and he was arrested for a incident which involved his next door neighbour being hit as they wouldn't turn the music down after going round there on 3 occasions to tell them. Tony was taking away to the police station were he was locked up for the night. The following day a officer interviewed him and said no charges will be brought against him as the neighbour said that it was his fault and he didn't want tony to get into trouble for it, Tony was released without charge or caution and went on his way. Saturday 3rd jan tony had a visit from the armed response unit asking him to voluntarily to give up his weapons and ammo which he did without any hassle, The officers did not give tony a receipt for the items that were taken but the officer said he would have them back after a wk to 10 days later. The 9th of jan tony received a letter from firearms licensing asking him to contact his doctor for a medical report which he did and posted back to them, 2 months later he has not heard anything he rings firearms but just gets fobbed off he did speak to the manager once who was very arrogant and said his guns were taken away with his certificates as a precaution that he doesn't breech the peace and his file was with the Deputy chief constable for a decision. Can someone tell me then I can pass it on to tony, How long does it take for a breech of the peace to last?? Also can tony put a complaint in as he did not receive a receipt for the items that were seized?? And wasn't kept informed of the process involved. Tony has contacted BASC and they have said that they can be prosecuted for not following home office guidelines?? Any advice would be great guys as my mate is in the dark over this. Just to let you know he has never been in trouble with the police in his life and has no criminal record, Thanks all. Steve.

Hi Mate,

I don't want to be the harbinger of doom here but I shall try and answer some points in in a non-emotive manner (beware some people will just gob off and not really help) - I cannot comment on what your mates individual circumstances are but hypothetically;

A breach of the peace - does not technically exist in law as it is subjective on each case - they don't "last" they are over as soon as one or another party has been removed. Someone can be held overnight in certain circumstances, of which there are loads.

Theoretically a complaint about not receiving a receipt will usually result in "service recovery", which may mean they will say you should have had a receipt - end of.

It is not possible to prosecute the police for stepping outside of ACPO or Home Office Guidelines. Home Office and ACPO guidelines are exactly that - guidelines. they are NOT rules or laws. I have stepped outside of them numerous times and could never have been criticized for doing so.

 

So hypothetically not good news I am afraid.

As I have said elsewhere; NO-ONE has a right or entitlement to hold a FAC or SG License and those that do, hold them ONLY at the discretion of the Chief Officer for their area. Technically and legally a FAC or SG ticket can be pulled for whichever reason the CO sees fit.

 

So the Chief Officer designates his authority to the Deputy who will decide on the report presented to him as to whether or not the ticket and weapons will be returned. Each case is unique and judged accordingly - the fact that a receipt was not issued matters not.

 

There is no hard and fast set of rules that one can quote or apply to a case without being fully aware of the circumstances.

No matter what anyone tells you on here or what BASC say.

[as88 146]

Is he from skefling, east riding by any chance?

[SportingShooter 0]

Whatever happens, he will have the right to appeal the Deputy's decision.

 

Can I clarify a few points, was he arrested for assault and then told no further action would be taken? Rather than arrested for a breach of the peace in the first place.

 

I have to disagree with clabedoo on the point that no one is entitled to a Shotgun Certificate or Firearms Certificate. The reasons for one being revoked or not granted must be justifiable, as you seem to suggest it can be for any reason. Equally, if there is no reason for one not to be granted, it cannot be refused no matter what the Chief Constable or his Firearms Licensing Manager's views are.

[Dumpling 23]

Whatever happens, he will have the right to appeal the Deputy's decision.

 

Can I clarify a few points, was he arrested for assault and then told no further action would be taken? Rather than arrested for a breach of the peace in the first place.

 

I have to disagree with clabedoo on the point that no one is entitled to a Shotgun Certificate or Firearms Certificate. The reasons for one being revoked or not granted must be justifiable, as you seem to suggest it can be for any reason. Equally, if there is no reason for one not to be granted, it cannot be refused no matter what the Chief Constable or his Firearms Licensing Manager's views are.

He was arrested mate but after the officer went to interview the person he hit the chap did not want tony prosecuted for the offence as he new tony very well and they had been good neighbours up to that point for over 20 yrs, What tony cant understand is when he was released the following day after no charges where brought to him then 3 days later the guys came from firearms to collect his weapons and nothing since he handed in a medical off his doctor back in January,All phone calls he has made to them have been met with its with the DCC awaiting a decision,,,, How long does that take????????.

[Alsone 789]

I too agree with SS.

 

I understand you have a legal right to hold a firearms licence provided you satisfy the requirements and there are no good reasons why you shouldn't hold one. It's not at the Chief Constable's discretion (provided you meet all the requirements).

 

That's why if the CC fails to grant a certificate, you have the right to take the police to Court and why the Court will order a grant if you met the requirements.

 

The only reason a Chief Constable can refuse a grant or revoke a certificate is if you don't meet the requirements or if he can show good reasons as to why you aren't a suitable person to hold one.

 

http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/is-firearms-ownership-a-right-and-not-a-privilege-21677

Edited March 21, 2015 by Alsone

[clabedoo 59]

At the risk of repeating myself (don't quote statute - check stated case) no-one has a statutory nor implicit right in law to hold a FAC or SG ticket, except at the granting discretion of the cheif officer for the area in which they reside. The laws are somewhat archaic despite recent addendum and annexes. They still contain phrases such as , "...or who is otherwise unfit to hold......" so as you can see they are wildly open to interpretation hence the need for stated cases.

 

Yes you can appeal but your appeal can only be heard on matters/circumstances/evidence and so forth that was not obvious or readily available at the time of revocation/refusal and not on the basis that the judgement was unsound.

 

This is again where problems are created. I have seized a multitude of weapons, tickets etc and I can tell you I speak from experience no matter what BASC and others say.

The most expensive barrister in the land won't help I am afraid. Legs for standing on are very few and far between when it comes to these issues. Not saying it is right just saying it the way it is.

 

And henceforth I shall no longer comment on these matters - don't need the hassle and I was only trying to say it straight no matter how unpalatable it may be.

[SportingShooter 0]

In which case, could you provide us with the stated cases/case law that you're referring to please,

 

The title of the case/appelant is fine, I'll find it from that.

 

I appreciate you don't want to get into further debate but the above would be helpful

[Alsone 789]

Clabedoo you're statement is interesting because I obtained a Crown Court judgement, in which the Judge issued an Order, ordering the Police to Grant a Certificate following a refusal (where he did not consider the grounds for refusal were valid) and specifically stating that there are no grounds to refuse the Appellant a Certificate.

 

That said, so far as the OP's friend is concerned, he's in the hands of the CC because his conduct has given rise to a situation where the CC has to made a review decision based on the evidence as to whether or not he still a suitable person to hold a firearm. That doesn't mean he can't challenge the decision though if he feels the evidence supports otherwise.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Alsone

[Dumpling 23]

At the risk of repeating myself (don't quote statute - check stated case) no-one has a statutory nor implicit right in law to hold a FAC or SG ticket, except at the granting discretion of the cheif officer for the area in which they reside. The laws are somewhat archaic despite recent addendum and annexes. They still contain phrases such as , "...or who is otherwise unfit to hold......" so as you can see they are wildly open to interpretation hence the need for stated cases. Yes you can appeal but your appeal can only be heard on matters/circumstances/evidence and so forth that was not obvious or readily available at the time of revocation/refusal and not on the basis that the judgement was unsound. This is again where problems are created. I have seized a multitude of weapons, tickets etc and I can tell you I speak from experience no matter what BASC and others say. The most expensive barrister in the land won't help I am afraid. Legs for standing on are very few and far between when it comes to these issues. Not saying it is right just saying it the way it is. And henceforth I shall no longer comment on these matters - don't need the hassle and I was only trying to say it straight no matter how unpalatable it may be.

Ive just been reading the firearms act of 1968 and as It is it is very archaic but what it does not say which I think it should is about the seizing of firearms in more detail..

As to time scale from the moment of seizing the weapons and ammo to the point of going to the dcc for a final decision after a medical has been produced and sent to the firearms dept. It does not state in no way or form that the owner of the seized items is kept informed of the process, Nor a time scale which I think should be there. I also notice that firearms licencing dept are under no guidance as to how long the person has to wait for a decision off the dcc,As regards to what you said about home office guidelines which you clearly pointed out are just that and not law why are we the tax payer paying someone in a office to put the guidance into practice and yet don't mean anything and not worth the paper its written on... It seems like the firearms dept is a law to its self and the individual who does have his/her guns seized is treated like a criminal regardless of how minor the offence is even though no charges have been brought.

[Mochastorm 68]

I'm with clabedoo on this. The Chief Officer of Police makes the decision. There was an assault which the OPs friend committed. I appreciate no prosecution followed, but his actions have resulted in him having his FAC taken. Clabedoo is telling how it is, not how some would like it to be. All respect to him for taking time to post an explanation. Your friend can appeal any decision made, spending what he likes on legal advice and counsel, but I personally doubt that he will be successful. On another point the Police Officers were acting lawfully, and they don't have to provide you with a receipt for items seized.

[The one 8,398]

My thought after the first time I would of called the police about the noise and let them deal with it , then he hit the guy the olives view is he might of lost his temper and shot the guy ? He didn't accept a caution because in the polices eyes that's as good as pleading guilty and instead of all the speculation on here I would be urging my insurance weather basic , sacs etc to take over for me but how can he claim the guns back he didn't get a receipt to say what was taken

[SportingShooter 0]

There's no doubt here that the justification for seizing the guns was and is valid and that a decision is due by whoever it may be on whether they believe the OP's friend is still a suitable person to hold a firearm,

 

That wasn't where the debate arose, it came from whether persons were entitled to a shotgun or firearm certificate.

 

If his certificate is revoked, there is still the right of appeal against that decision and that is not just a review decision, that can be made on any evidence whether it was available at the time or subsequently. Not as has been suggested only on new evidence.