Training Help

[Tozer 385]

I have a bit of an odd situation.

 

I would like to correct it before it goes too far if it hasn't.

 

I've got a terrier here that I taught to retriee from the start, as first she was really good ( 8wks- 6 months), then she started dropping short, running round me and a few other bad habits now I can't get her to bring anything back really.

I know this is my fault.

 

Sorry this is long winded but the odd part is this, I have tried the tug game, she will grab and release on command.

 

1) I have got the command 'fetch' down to an art: you can drop something, call her off it, walk 100 yrds or more and she will head straight back and pick it up.

 

 

2)The two terriers killed a rat this evening, did what normally happens and it ended up 20yrd out in the field. Let them carry on ratting, 20 minutes later give the command 'fetch' randomly and she'll run straight to it and pick it up.

 

I can give many examples. I spent a lot of time training and like I said it was really good. I used her with the air rifle to get her used to it. When she started having problems I took her off that and tried again but have only made it worse!!!

 

I can sit her in front of me, get her to stay, put her toy a couple of feet away. Then 'fetch'and she'll pick it up, run round me the first couple of times, then I can repeat it and more or less get her to put it in my hand.

 

Then you are back to square one, add any distance and there is no chance of it coming back, but she will always return to it on command ('fetch').

 

It seems I have a dog that could make a handy dog with the gun, but can I hell get her to bring things back!

Edited November 12, 2014 by Tozer

[beast 1,884]

so what is she doing? just leaving the prey on the floor, running off with it, playing with it, or (horror of horrors!) trying to eat it?!!

a dog which just leaves the prey is difficult to correct, i think you would have to force train

 

a dog which tries to eat the quarry, god only knows what to do about that!

 

but a dog which runs around with prey in its mouth is not a lost cause, you just have to get it to engage that kill/play grey area with you. i nearly ruined a superb lurcher bitch a few years ago because she would retrieve like a lab until about a year old, but then she learnt that she could keep letting rabbits go, and catch them again, time after time. i became a bit frantic to get them off her and ended up that she would just run out of my reach, wagging her tail and thinking i was part of her game. and when i did get her to bring them back, i whipped them away before she caused more problems. or so i thought. i solved this by taking her ferretting and nothing else, and letting her grab netted rabbits. i would then hold them with her, not asking her to drop or anything else, just holding them and telling her 2good girl" and when she let go i would encourage her to hold on again, then i would chuck them for her to retrieve, or even let them go for her to run. walking along, i would take a rabbit from my bag and let her gently mouth it as she walked beside me, not ragging or crunching it, just engaging with it, and i was part of that engagement. she was a bright bitch, and very quickly learnt that i was part of the fun, not somebody who would end her fun by taking the bunny. once the penny dropped, she became the best retriever i have ever owned and amongst the best i have seen.good luck, let us know how you get on

[Tozer 385]

Cheers, she is running past/around me with what ever I am trying to use. She can be a pain, if she thinks there is nothing about she'll try repeatedly to snatch a rabbit I'm carrying. I don't really want her retrieving rats, but it was just there to test with and she is pretty hard mouthed, but she is a terrier.

 

I just feel I am stuck at a point where she understands to go for the game/toy/ball/dummy on command but won't retrieve it, it is her game then. I have tried the advice of tug from CMW and that is how I ended up training with her sitting in front of me.

 

You wouldn't expect gundog obedience form a terrier, but I thought I might be able to use her pigeon shooting. She has good recall, listens, sits and takes direction.

 

I am trying to use her to iron out my failings before I bring on the lurcher.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Tozer

[beast 1,884]

sounds as though all the pieces are there. i would try carrying a rabbit or squirrel in my pocket, and whilst you are out walking, dog on lead, and calm, just get her to mouth the body. not winding her up or getting excited, just a little verbal praise. just get her to understand that the fun doesnt stop just because you are involved in it. try a few retrieves in the garden, back to basic puppy stuff, to get her to engage with you. its not about being the alpha or anything else, its about the relationship between her and you.

 

possibly the major issue has been caused by having another terrier there though , thats something to think about

 

i'm guesing she is still pretty young by the sound of her behaviour. dogs with high prey drive often dont want the hunt to stop so dont give up their quarry as easily, but once they come off the boil they will then retrieve as a separate behaviour to the hunt. and often they will outgrow this to some degree

[Tozer 385]

Sorry that should have read lurcher, I've got a four month old lurcher pup too and the terrier I am training is 10/11 months old, I make sure I do any training separately, the other terrier is a litter sister to her and is my dads.

 

So far the lurcher is showing some good signs, effortlessly brings things to hand, will bring toys to me and give them up without fuss and sits, but is a much gentler temperament.

 

I'll keep trying, I know that if she was retrieving and has since stopped it is my fault, just got to work out what it is I am doing wrong!

[Casso 1,256]

Don't be in to much of a hurry to get the perfect retrieve from the start,

Too much emphases put on the retrieve item can give a pup conflicting notions, as in, the owner is placing all his attention on this, this should be my complete focus of attention

Over stimulated pups become needy,

I do little with pups until they start showing me drive , long walks with no over stimulation builds calm confident pups

Get the pup on a really long line , you can buy long lengths of nylon online , buy a clip from hard wear shop make up a twenty metre lead , you can do retrieve with the pup on this having the pup coming into your space , get contact and leave the item with her , walk on then produce another item , get her jumping up on you for the item , big contact is what your looking for , if she drops the first item, great , its the contact and coming into your space is what you need to promote , making contact with first brings the second into play

Has she ever been corrected in your space , even for chewing as a pup?

Manage , manage , manage don't discipline , your space must be safe for pup

[beast 1,884]

Don't be in to much of a hurry to get the perfect retrieve from the start,

Too much emphases put on the retrieve item can give a pup conflicting notions, as in, the owner is placing all his attention on this, this should be my complete focus of attention

Over stimulated pups become needy,

I do little with pups until they start showing me drive , long walks with no over stimulation builds calm confident pups

Get the pup on a really long line , you can buy long lengths of nylon online , buy a clip from hard wear shop make up a twenty metre lead , you can do retrieve with the pup on this having the pup coming into your space , get contact and leave the item with her , walk on then produce another item , get her jumping up on you for the item , big contact is what your looking for , if she drops the first item, great , its the contact and coming into your space is what you need to promote , making contact with first brings the second into play

Has she ever been corrected in your space , even for chewing as a pup?

Manage , manage , manage don't discipline , your space must be safe for pup

 

 

i like these bits, kinda what i was trying to say, but much better worded

[Tozer 385]

Thanks, I have just been doing some training. I think I can turn it around, I'll put a video up of it.

 

 

She did something good(ish) the other day, took them to a farm and let them hunt about for a few rats, and the farmer asked me to knock off a couple of the collard doves round the grain store, so took the 12 bore.

 

I shot at one, thought I'd missed it, the dog went off across the field in the direction it headed and went out of sight and came back with it a few minutes later, I wish I'd got a picture of it. Didn't exactly bring it to hand, just proceeded to rag it a few feet away from me as proud as punch with herself.

[beast 1,884]

afew feet away is fine, you are nearly there, just need to get into the dogs head that you are part of that scenario! i think if you can shoot more things for her to carry, she will learn to mouth stuff when she hasnt got into full drive, in other words when she hasnt killed herself. there is a massive difference, a dog which has hunted and caught something for itelf needs to release its energy and does this by biting and ragging. a dog carrying something already dead hasnt got so "high" beforehand, so doesnt need to come down again by biting

[Tozer 385]

i'll get a couple of video's up, a few days training and I think I am turning it around. Thanks for the advice.

[Casso 1,256]

afew feet away is fine, you are nearly there, just need to get into the dogs head that you are part of that scenario! i think if you can shoot more things for her to carry, she will learn to mouth stuff when she hasnt got into full drive, in other words when she hasnt killed herself. there is a massive difference, a dog which has hunted and caught something for itelf needs to release its energy and does this by biting and ragging. a dog carrying something already dead hasnt got so "high" beforehand, so doesnt need to come down again by biting

I like that post, there's an understanding of motivation and the true nature of the dog,

A pup doesn't need to be be corrected to make it social, a dog makes itself social to fit within its group (owner) if it's owner is instrumtial to the dog fulfilling itself as a hunting animal

Not saying it's the case here but the amount of people I've met who can't grasp that every incident you have with a pup growing up effects how the dog relates to us in training and in the field later on

Could be something as simple as snatching an item off a pup on the house he's not meant to be chewing and scolding for it

Saluki owners are expressing a real understanding that the physical act of hunting is what makes the dog bonded and social , not through discipline and dominance ,

[Tozer 385]

I must admit, after the post i questioned how she is bought up, and we spend a lot of time saying 'no' be it the table, firewood in the corner....

 

I have made a lot of progress, I'll get it on camera.

 

I have a saluki whippet who is being bought up very differently, she brings things to me, doesn't need telling twice and I am bringing along in a more natural way. just involving her in everything I do.

[beast 1,884]

i think youll get it right tozer. for me, one little thing might be not to put either dog in a position where it is retrieving stuff when the other dog is present, at least until both are proficient and experienced