You Asking About What Food Is Best Etc?

[hutch6 550]

There are risks with every food, preservatives etc in completes, bacteria and chemicals in meat, harm from bones etc etc one could go on and on after all doesnt everything we eat pose a risk of some sort?

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/everything-we-eat-causes-cancer/

 

We need to take a common sense approach to the subject and consider what the risks are in the real world. There are millions of dogs fed completes around the world and in the time of their use lifespans continue to increase and reported problems are rare in light of the volume used.

 

Then there are home made feeds such as meat, cereal and veg which again are likely to be reasonable safe but do have some drawbacks with the possibility of dietary imbalance, bacteria if feeding raw, problems with bones etc.

 

Baring the above in mind it would be hard to argue that one is really any better than the other. I go for the middle ground and use a complete as a base along with meat, bones etc based on what suits the dogs and my lifestyle.

 

My feeding choices are based on the facts of dogs digestion being very good at dealing with protein, fat and carbs with fibre likely aiding health and their bodies utilising these products very well. After all they are different from true obligate carnivores like cats so treating them as obligates is not needed and may cause problems. Lastly ideas about what natural etc are always floored as nature isnt some well meaning entity but a savage matter of survival.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnature.html

 

The living ancestors of dogs, wolves, can digest and utilise carbs very well and dogs have a good few thousand years of domestication in which carbs would have been a major part of the diet to refine this

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html

 

Feeding a mixture of meat and cereals meets the needs of this digestion, enables good refuelling of stores to aid recovery, maintain immune and digestive health. Veg adds to the general mix and gives some extra micro nutrients, (vitamins and minerals.)

http://www.britishrowing.org/news/2011/september/13/avoiding-and-managing-seasonal-illness

 

Remember we are not feeding the teeth but the whole animal and that does well on a mix of protein, carb and fats, supplied in a digestible form and if its digestible it is biologically appropriate. The idea that raw is more biologically appropriate or cereals need to be cooked so are inappropriate is nonsensical. Raw, cooked etc, other than bones, have little real world impact on the dog. Completes meet the needs of many, they may not be ideal but home made diets arent either so we pick what suits and see what we want to see as a result.

 

The original post was there to help people make an informed choice of wether the food they were feeding their dogs was "the best" they could for their budget by explaining the ingredients listed on the side of commercial pet food products, I didn't mention feeding anything else. I mention cereals but I state that they are not effecient in delivery of poteins. Can a dog or wolf survuve on cereals alone? Yes. Can they thrive? No. That was the main point - "To get the best out of your dog try and make sure you are putting the best you can into it".

 

I have read the paragrpahs you have written and also the links that have gone with them.

 

IN the first one you state that many foods can be linked to a "risk" yet the link provided is resounding voice against the reports that are made public stating that food X is linked to risk A and that food Y is linked to risk B because the analytical data is weak at best. Indeed int he last four paragraphs the author of the blog concludes that the information sent out ot he public is there to casue persuassion rather than warning:

 

"It is therefore imperative that we spend less time repeating weak correlations and invest the resources to vigorously investigate nutrient-cancer and other disease associations with stronger methodology, so that we give the public lightning rods instead of sending them up the bell tower.

 

That last remark refers to Ben Franklin’s lightning rod and how churches used to think that ringing bells would protect against lightning strikes when in fact ringing bells only put the bell ringers in danger from lightning, which often struck bell towers because bell towers were usually the highest buildings in most towns. It’s a metaphor that fits, because the superstition about lightning before the lightning rod could divert devastating lightning strikes from bell towers is not unlike the irrational beliefs about food-cancer links that all too often predominate even today. The answer is more rigorous science and less publicizing of weak science."

 

Your next parapgraphs talks about nature and what is natural. In this article it puts forward - "There is no factual reason to suppose that what is natural is good (or at least better) and what is unnatural is bad (or at least worse)." Well as there are many reports linking the unnatural preservatives I stated above to varius health issues with some of them being banned in the human food chain then I would go as far as to say that yes, there is a factual reason to suppose these are worse than antural occuring preservatives which I have listed. The only other thing I can draw from this is that if I wanted to smoke naturally I would have to get a pure tobacco leafe, dry it out in the sun, wander to some arrid grass land and wait for a lightneing strike so I could light my cigarette.

What does occur naturally the world over, in fact as documented over and over gain on Natural World reports is yes, nature is a "savage matter of surviva" but it is always based around the follow flow events - Plants <=> Herbivores <=> carnivores <=> Periodontal disease organisms. The plants regulate herbivores and in turn herbivores regulate plants. Herbivores regulate carnivores and in turn carnivores regulate herbivores. Carnivores regulate periodontal disease organisms and periodontal disease organism regulate carnivores. Commercial pet foods are a major contributor to periodontal disease incidents in cats and dogs.

I recommend looking at www.rawmeatybones.com and reading the book of the same title by Tom Lonsdale. Yes, he's a fully qualified vet etc - http://www.rawmeatybones.com/Dr-Lonsdale-biography.pdf

As a side note, are the cereals put into commercial pet foods natural or are they GMO that can be caked in pesticides and insecticides, absorbs these and then pass them onto the consumer of said product be it a dog, a horse or a human thus making them cheaper as theyc an be vastly mass produced and are therefore the product of choice for a high consuming but demanind a low price species such as, humans who in turn have pets? Is it really a low price if you think about the cause and effect of producing such food stuffs?

 

 

 

The differences between wolves and dogs are very few and far between. To say one can utllise carbs or derive proteins from cereals easier than the next is like saying men can drink more alcohol than women. Over a measured study they porobably can but it doesn't mean alcohol is good for you in anyway, in fact alcohol is roughly responsible for over a third of all cancers. Again, can they survive on cereals? Yes. Can they thrive on them? No.

 

I really don't know why you posted the next link because it is about how to fight off cold and flu as reported by the British Rowing Club. What that has to do with the physiology of dogs I don't know.

Here is a little snippet from the book I mentioned about crabohydrates on the dog's system and if it aids digestion:

"Dogs have little evolved needs for carbohydrates and cats have no need for this source of energy. Consequently these species produce low levels of digestive enzymes required to deal with the high starch content. As we have seen int he previous chapter, undigested food arriving in the bowelprovides nutrients for a teeming population of harmful bacteria. But the carbohydrate problemsassociated with grains are just the beginning. Grains contain protein too. David Kronfeld says:

.....the protein [in cooked grains is] lowin quality to begin with, then further degraded to a variable degree by cooking [from 5 to 50 biologically unavailable]. This destroys metheionineand histidine, and combines proteinswith starch to form indigestiblebrown polymers like caramel - a nice color and flavor but otherwise useles."

 

For you last statement it would be worth investigating the effects of commercial pet food on pet teeth, the link to periodontal disease organisms they create and the disasterous effects of increased periodontal disease organisms on pets, their immune systems, their health and their life expectancy - the book and website mentioned is a good foundation to start with.

As I said in my intial post, yes, completes do meet the needs of many becasue of there convenience but as the vast majority on here are after a dog that they can get the very best from then surely knowing what a good quality fuel for the dog to allow it to deliver its best out in the field time and time again is paramount knowledge. I could have stated the benefits fo raw or prey diets over complete but I didn't, this thread is purely for those that choose to feed a complete food be it as a sole source or as part of a mixed diet.

[Rake aboot 4,929]

 

dogs done well years ago when they were fed scraps from the table ffs think people read to much into it atb

 

I completely agree hence where the term "fit as a butcher's dog" comes from but the claims of these food companies and the fancy pictures on the front give the impression is the mutt's nuts for dog and many people feed it due to their own reasons but then there are so many questions about what food is best, is a certain brand any good etc. I thought I'd write something to allow the person who is asking these questions to make an informed decision and to better understand and decypher the ingredients labels to make sure that if they are going to feed a complete food they get a product which has the best ingredients for their budget - bang for your buck.

 

 

>Yup

 

My last lurcher was fit as f**k, and lived to 14 after a healthy working life. ALL feulled by good old Dr Johns Gold.

 

Well that is cracking news and it sounds like the dog had a great time of it but if you already feed a raw diet or a prey diet then then this thread doesn't apply to you as you already know what is best for your dogs and dogs in general. You would have been excused for not reading passed the title because you don't have any questions abiout your dogs eat.

 

 

 

Oh no,, you mean I`m NOT excused ?? sanctimonious tit.

[hutch6 550]

Oh no,, you mean I`m NOT excused ?? sanctimonious tit.

 

What are you on about? You are happy with what you feed your dogs, don't have any questions about the food or the ingredients or if it's the best for your dog so this thread wasn't aimed at you. It's aimed at people that are unsure of how good the food they are giving there dog is and is there a better food out there etc.

 

As you stated within your posts, you didn't read the whole post as it was causing your eyes to fall out, your lurcher was fit and healthy throughout its working life and died at the ripe old age of 14years. So yes, even if you did read the whole post it wasn't applicable to you anyway.

[sandymere 8,261]

What a joy that was - all the words are English, and I can understand what each one means, but put together in that order they mean naff-all! (Sorry can't find the author but thought it apt if a liitle cruel.)

 

Tooth disese is linked to soft diets, commom in flesh fed greyhounds,

The ex vet who started BARF is a quack and discredited

Now a bit of real biology

I. Animal Factors

Energy

Dietary energy can be derived from carbohydrate, fat, and protein. Dogs are omnivores. Cats, however, have evolved as obligate carnivores and in fact have no dietary requirement for carbohydrates although they can utilize them fairly well. One of the most important things to recognize about feline metabolism is that gluconeogenesis occurs in the fed state. In most species, including dogs, glucose is synthesized (from amino acids, lactate, or glycerol) only during periods of fasting. In addition, the hepatic enzymes involved in protein and amino acid catabolism can be down-regulated to some extent in the face of restricted protein intake. Cats, having evolved on a diet high in protein and fat but nearly devoid of carbohydrate, have lost this ability to down regulate hepatic amino acid metabolism. Therefore, utilization of amino acids for glucose production results in obligate nitrogen losses in the cat. Another aspect of feline hepatic energy metabolism to note is that cats lack the hepatic enzyme glucokinase. Glucokinase catalyzes the initial step of all enzymatic pathways that utilize glucose and becomes activated when glucose concentrations increase. There is another enzyme, hexokinase, which also performs this role although this enzyme can act on a variety of sugars while glucokinase is specific for glucose. It is interesting that ruminant species also lack hepatic glucokinase. Teleologically, this makes sense when you think about it since neither cats nor ruminants evolved consuming diets high in sugars and starches that would result in large amounts of glucose being transported to the liver post-prandially

(Review of Applied Canine and Feline Nutrition

Kathryn E. Michel DVM, MS, Dipl. ACVN)

 

When people say they have the special answer and all the rest are out to get them its usually paranoia rather than good science and Lonsdale et al fall into that bracket all the other vets are wrong!!

Beware believing the writings of quacks as we are easily blinded by pseudo science (AKA B$llShite).

Edited February 7, 2013 by sandymere

[billy whizz 141]

ive read for days and weeks what to feed my dogs and its a head ache and the internet is a can of worms,i now feed them a working dog complete and mixed in some raw and sardines during the week.

 

all i go by is if the dog is running well and how much shit is in the yard so far so good solid shits and not many so im happy.

 

id would fed raw all the time but to dear to get me around me to do it full time

 

ive a mate whos fed his dog on the chubb roll stuff for 15 years always in good nick.

 

even the best complete foods get bad reveiws on the net its mental .

 

just feed em and get em out

[gnipper 5,994]

Basically lads if your dogs do well on the diet you feed them keep em on it. Don't need to baffle yourself with science when the evidence is lay before you (or out in its kennel).

If your dogs don't look or do well on the food your giving them its probably cheap shite.

[marthaswhippet 1]

Sandymere just likes to give them a shovel and watch them dig themselves an ever deeper hole.

[hutch6 550]

What a joy that was - all the words are English, and I can understand what each one means, but put together in that order they mean naff-all! (Sorry can't find the author but thought it apt if a liitle cruel.)

 

Tooth disese is linked to soft diets, commom in flesh fed greyhounds,

The ex vet who started BARF is a quack and discredited

Now a bit of real biology

I. Animal Factors

Energy

Dietary energy can be derived from carbohydrate, fat, and protein. Dogs are omnivores. Cats, however, have evolved as obligate carnivores and in fact have no dietary requirement for carbohydrates although they can utilize them fairly well. One of the most important things to recognize about feline metabolism is that gluconeogenesis occurs in the fed state. In most species, including dogs, glucose is synthesized (from amino acids, lactate, or glycerol) only during periods of fasting. In addition, the hepatic enzymes involved in protein and amino acid catabolism can be down-regulated to some extent in the face of restricted protein intake. Cats, having evolved on a diet high in protein and fat but nearly devoid of carbohydrate, have lost this ability to down regulate hepatic amino acid metabolism. Therefore, utilization of amino acids for glucose production results in obligate nitrogen losses in the cat. Another aspect of feline hepatic energy metabolism to note is that cats lack the hepatic enzyme glucokinase. Glucokinase catalyzes the initial step of all enzymatic pathways that utilize glucose and becomes activated when glucose concentrations increase. There is another enzyme, hexokinase, which also performs this role although this enzyme can act on a variety of sugars while glucokinase is specific for glucose. It is interesting that ruminant species also lack hepatic glucokinase. Teleologically, this makes sense when you think about it since neither cats nor ruminants evolved consuming diets high in sugars and starches that would result in large amounts of glucose being transported to the liver post-prandially

(Review of Applied Canine and Feline Nutrition

Kathryn E. Michel DVM, MS, Dipl. ACVN)

 

When people say they have the special answer and all the rest are out to get them its usually paranoia rather than good science and Lonsdale et al fall into that bracket all the other vets are wrong!!

Beware believing the writings of quacks as we are easily blinded by pseudo science (AKA B$llShite).

 

It is linked to soft diets and also kibble diets. The facts are plain as day to see for me as virtually all of my friends who have dogs feed them on kibble and out of fourteen dogs all fourteen have browning teeth with around 9 of them having to have at least one tooth extracted and another dying of heart issues and liver issues aged 7. The youngest to have a tooth extracted was at four years old. My eldest dog is only five and still has a lovely set of pearly whites - plenty of crunchy bones to munch on cleans them up nice and good and keeps them away from ther vets. He did start to get brown teeth when I used to feed him a kibble diet but since changing he has improved no end.

 

You've found a parapgraph about feline dietry requirements and metobolism that mentions dogs once. This is written by the person that advocates the benefit of a vegan diet for both cats and dogs from what I know of her. Not a route I'd go down if I wanted to have a happy pet unless it was a rodent.

 

The complete pet food industry is $70Billion industry. Tests have been carried out independently that show that a complete fed diet causes the accelartion of calculus on canine teeth which then led to periodontal disease (it reduced the tested beagles sense of smell and ability to track, as well as causing abnormal brain activity linked with depression, as the bacteria scent was so bad and that was after only several months). In order to combat the onset of tartar and calculus what has the pet industry done? Created dental chews. Who created these dental chews? The same companies that make complete foods for your pets. They manufacture the stuff that causes dog's teeth to rot which has a knock on effect to many others things meaning your dog has to go to the vets for all manner of stuff, and then they market you a solution to the problem they caused. "I'd love to buy some to put over my eyes to stop any of that snake oil getting in them, thank you." Who stands to lose the most by promoting a raw or prey diet?

 

How can you say the vets that champion a raw or prey duet are quacks when all you are doing is removing all of the processing, annonymous sources, the preservatives and the dogs get a kick out of crunching, tearing and chewing it all? I don't get how it is not beneficial over what some marketing slogan tells me and so do most vets who don't agree with grains and cereals being a primary ingredient in commercial dog food.

 

I am not saying one diet is better than the other or "if you want the best out of your dogs then feed them this.." All I have written is a list of ingredients that are common in complete foods and if you are feeding your dog a complete diet and want to know if it is any good then read the ingredients label, read what I have written about the source of those ingredients, do a bit of maths to make sure you are getting value for money from those ingredients and go from there.