richmcgin 32 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 and you have a reply. Quote Link to post
dadioles 68 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Oh joy.... I do so love it when contributors get their dander up. It can be both entertaining and educational - free speech - brilliant and thank you. I must admit that when I first saw the statement by richmcgin that "most of the 22 ammo in circulation is made in one factory by CCi" it raised a bit of a smile as it is completely incorrect and that, unfortunately, is how rumours start. Quite a few years ago it was said that most .17hmr ammunition was made in one factory and at the time I had enough enthusiasm to check it out first hand and it was broadly true, tip colour was the most obvious difference, but then hmr was in its infancy and things have moved on. The spec is tight but there are clearly differences between brands, wherever they are manufactured. .22lr has been around for more than 150 years and bashed out by the million all over the world. It can be very inconsistent even from batch to batch, hence the suggestion to try several, find a good one that suits your gun and then buy that make / batch in bulk. Most .22lr shooting seems to be at about 50 yards (I am guessing) or even less, so the lack of inherent accuracy is quite forgiving. I often read that people are pleased with two inch groups at 50 yards although at that range I would have thought half an inch would be a better ambition (practice?, ammunition choice?). Incidentally, regarding Hornady .17hmr v-max tip colour. These have been produced with blue tips, red tips, orange tips and maybe others. Bob Palmer (tech rep at Hornady) told me that they are all the same bullet produced to the same spec on the same machines. He also said: "The red color of the tip can vary a little because of the color die in the machine. It can vary a little on the mix. You also see some bullets that are brown or darker. That is caused by the injection mold being too hot. I think we make all of the tipped 17 cal bullets for the HMR. I don't know why they would have the blue tips they were for FN for the 5.7X28 round. We probably had an excess to use up." One thing to be careful of when interpreting statements like that, and I don't know the answer in this instance, there is a difference between the bullet and the cartridge. The bullet is the projectile, the cartridge is the tube holding the powder. I cannot help but wonder if Hornady were manufacturing the actual bullet (as in the bit that fires out of the gun), while others manufactured the cartridge and filled them to slightly different specifications. Language is a precise tool that needs to be used with precision. Now I have to go and lookup "transonic influences" although given that the .22lr that I use is subsonic I rather assume that it does not apply. As an aside, back in the day.... I used to own an aeroplane and it had an 8 litre 4 cylinder engine with the propeller directly mounted on the crankshaft. No gearbox = more reliable. The propeller tip speed (obviously the tip is the bit that travels fastest) was not allowed to reach the speed of sound as "nasty things" happen if it does. So that meant that the engine could not rotate at more than about 2900rpm, which is why it had such a huge capacity, all the torque was required at low engine revs, max torque was at about 2600rpm. 1 Quote Link to post
richmcgin 32 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Hands Up i could be wrong about the rimfire thing, i have no problem with that, it was just something i read somewhere and i dont think its much of a big deal. but i suspect thats not the issue its more about who wrote it!!!. i have done as was suggested to me that i contact remington to see how much they produce and i have done the same with cci to ask who they produce it for, but i dont think i will get an answer to that one. as for the transonic thing yes i agree that transonic influences exist it is well documented, but the disagreement came about over a very specific context ie. the transonic effect on a HV 22lr bullet at to 100 yrds, federal and cci backed me up but the other chap is far more inteligent than the manufacturers. and so it goes on !!!!. I have read somthing about the tips of rota blades along the line of what you have written but you must understand a powered blade is very different to a free flying bullet. And as for the 17hmr i have no idea i dont have one anymore and thought they were over rated and over priced. Quote Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) You, dear boy, (which school do you actually go to, they have a lot to answer for), suggested Transonic Effect occurred between Hypersonic and supersonic speeds (ammo designer for the Special Forces hey! pass me the Ray Gun) and would not accept serious maths and physics put to you by several members of this forum, don't come crawling back to this thread with more BS trying to shaft someone else for your inadequacies. NO manufacturer has told you anything against what I and many others have said, you even said in a PM to me Federal agreed with me. You live in a fantasy world of your own invention. As I have just told you in about 3 PM's ........... START ANOTHER THREAD, DON'T SCREW THIS ONE UP AND........ POST ANY INFORMATION/EMAILS/LETTERS FROM ANY REPUTABLE SOURCE THAT SHOWS ANYTHING I HAVE SAID IS WRONG! Remember this....... richmcgin Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:19 AM Paulus you have a good point and well put, but as mr Hooks has ask i feel i must reply, we all know what supersonic is and we know that hypersonic is the next on the scale with the inbetween being covered my Mach, Transonic is the effect of diff air speeds at diff parts of an object between supersonic and hypersonic speeds, to give you more detail than that i would have to look it up and its not that important to me!!!!. ................................. matt_hooks went on to give you a detailed lecture on Transonic effect that you chose to argue with. (ammo designer for the Special Forces hey! :laugh:) Roll on the end of the School Holidays! Edited March 28, 2013 by Deker Quote Link to post
richmcgin 32 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 At first i thought you had problems reading, now i know your just a liar. I dont think a single word of that was true. Quote Link to post
richmcgin 32 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Below is the content of our PMs this morning. You are a dangerous child, I guess 12-14 years old,(whatever, your brain is) you don't know what you are talking about, make false claims suggest you are some world expert and now you are on about some Theory I have about transonic effect. You read too many of the wrong comics.You don't have any emails saying I am wrong because I don't have a "theory", I wasn't the one that said transonic was between Hypersonic and supersonic, you did, go away and print any response from any ammo manufacturer you like that suggests I have a flawed "theory", there is no theory, Transonic effect is fact.Perhaps you would care to show everyone here some of your special forces ammo as well, so who makes it, you I guess down the shed, oh of course, you can't show anyone here, its top secret.Just start another thread with all this to make me look small and don't screw with other people. Crack on, have a go, sort me out! Assuming KILLShttp://www.djsproducts.com/ http://www.gameandvermincontrol.co.uk/ Reply Report richmcgin richmcginMega Hunter Donator 395 posts 0 warning points Location:South West Sent Today, 09:18 AM Deker, on 28 Mar 2013 - 08:11, said: You are a dangerous child, I guess 12-14 years old,(whatever, your brain is) you don't know what you are talking about, make false claims suggest you are some world expert and now you are on about some Theory I have about transonic effect. You read too many of the wrong comics.You don't have any emails saying I am wrong because I don't have a "theory", I wasn't the one that said transonic was between Hypersonic and supersonic, you did, go away and print any response from any ammo manufacturer you like that suggests I have a flawed "theory", there is no theory, Transonic effect is fact.Perhaps you would care to show everyone here some of your special forces ammo as well, so who makes it, you I guess down the shed, oh of course, you can't show anyone here, its top secret.Just start another thread with all this to make me look small and don't screw with other people. Crack on, have a go, sort me out! I have a couple of points, I would never have said that transonic comes between hyper and super. As i remember your theory was that a .22LR round would become destabilised due to the effect of the transonic infulences at to 100 yards. I totally disagree and i think that the slowing of the bullets rotaion is the destabilizing factor, Yes transonic influences may or may not effect bullets at extreme range, this was backed up by the guys at Federal. Now the argument is about rimfire manufacturers i spent some time looking for rimfire factories in the states last night and i only found 2 but there was a third possibility but i cant confirm that they manufacture rimfire ammo. I have mailed CCI but i guess at best any answer will be inconclusive due to contractual restraints. even so it is a petty argument i think you would agree. Bullet design does`nt just happen by magic, you dont wake up one morning and find that the pixies have left you a new product under the pillow. The bit i had a hand in is not secret and my part was very easy and you dont know how close the garden shed thing is to reality. Making a bullet do something on impact is the easy part making it do something in flight is a whole diferent ball game and not something i would have the time, know how or inclination to do. I dont wish to make you look small and i have infact even told someone that i thought you knew your stuff. I find it easier in life to get on with people rather than fall out, true i did enjoy our discusion on the transonic thing, it was a worth while argument and a level or two above the norm, not that the norm is below me or anyone else for that matter but it is good to do the tech stuff every now and then. I dont depart dangerous information to anyone but if i have please show me. finally its not a case of sorting you out, i try to remain polite when i reply to you with a hint of sarcasum may be but polite none the less, i think if you look back you will see you the agressor every time. We plainly got off on the wrong foot when i challenged what you said all that time ago, but a year has passed since then and i would have thought that something that far back would be of no matter now. Reply Report Edit Delete Deker DekerExtreme Hunter Members 5,198 posts Location:Berkshire Sent Today, 10:05 AM Anything you want to post about me from any manufacturer post it. You have a VERY bad memory, probably why you think CCI is the biggest .22lr manufacturer and makes all Remington etc .22lr. And by your own admission you now say Federal acknowledges Transonic effect, anything else you would like to change your mind about? Email Remington and ask how much .22lr ammo they make at their plant in Lonoke Arkansas, I'm sure they will be happy to tell you CCI doesn't make ANY of their .22lr and they actually make more than CCI. Oh, and you appear to think it is only the States they make rimfire ammo in, you have an awful lot to learn! If you want advice then ask, don't preach what you don't know, if you actually used some guns rather than dreaming about them you would learn a lot more! Assuming KILLShttp://www.djsproducts.com/ http://www.gameandvermincontrol.co.uk/ Reply Report richmcgin richmcginMega Hunter Donator 395 posts 0 warning points Location:South West Sent Today, 10:24 AM your right i do have a bad memory! i dont think that rimfire is only made in the states and i never said that was the case, but they are the biggest producer. Yes Federal accknowledges Transonic effects, so do I but not in the context that you were using. If you know how much Rimfire remington make then please save me the trouble of emailing them and tell me, i already know how much CCi produce the uncertanty is who they produce it for, we may and we may not get an answer on that. your argument is still just based on what you think and not backed up with any fact If you want to go through the transonic thing again i dont mind and i would find it very interesting. You tend to say nothing of any value very loudly. Reply Report Edit Delete Deker DekerExtreme Hunter Members 5,198 posts Location:Berkshire Sent Today, 10:45 AM Look it up yourself how much Remington make, you are very good at that sort of thing, and after all, whatever I say you will not believe me. Remington make ALL their own ammo (except HMR) and a lot more .22lr than CCI. Why don't you go and find out why CCI makes HMR for several manufacturers, you will plainly see then why the same situation doesn't apply to .22lr. We have done transonic effect to death, you didn't get it and don't get it, there was no context of what I or anyone was saying to you, you simply didn't accept or understand transonic effect, spouting off about Hyper velocity, and insisted the various people who told you about it were wrong, even now saying 2 manufacturers said I am wrong, but then you change your mind and say Federal agrees with me and others, you can't decide or remember what you are talking about. You are a waste of time, feel free to post anything from any manufacturer (or other reputable source) that says anything I have said is wrong. Until then don't expect any mercy from me when you start with your BS on any thread! Assuming KILLShttp://www.djsproducts.com/ http://www.gameandvermincontrol.co.uk/ Reply Report richmcgin richmcginMega Hunter Donator 395 posts 0 warning points Location:South West Sent Today, 11:01 AM I try to tell myself that i wont bother to look up remingtons production figure but i prob will. regards the transonic thing you clearly cant read. and there can be no discussion without a context so that just shows a little more ignorance. And the mercy thing well i dont think that will bother me too much, mercy from your sort is not required. as for posting stuff that says your wrong well i think i have already done that your just to much of an arse to realise it. I have had a couple of messages saying to just ignor the prick, but that would be rude of me so rest assured i will always answer your messages. even if they are only full of the normal piss and wind emminating from an armchair shooter. Reply Report Edit Delete Deker DekerExtreme Hunter Members 5,198 posts Location:Berkshire Sent Today, 11:15 AM :laugh: I get the impression you actually believe some of the BS you write! You just crack on with your own little fantasy world. Don't forget, POST up anything you can find that shows I am wrong from any reputable source! Assuming KILLShttp://www.djsproducts.com/ http://www.gameandvermincontrol.co.uk/ Reply Report richmcgin richmcginMega Hunter Donator 395 posts 0 warning points Location:South West Sent Today, 11:38 AM Deker, on 28 Mar 2013 - 11:15, said: :laugh: I get the impression you actually believe some of the BS you write! You just crack on with your own little fantasy world. Don't forget, POST up anything you can find that shows I am wrong from any reputable source! You could be right !!! still you know what they say "theres no educating pork" You still didnt back up your dangerous advise thing ?????? Quote Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) At first i thought you had problems reading, now i know your just a liar. I dont think a single word of that was true. That wasn't your post then on 28 Jan 2012, its still here in the History, try calling me a liar again and I'll kick your arse, but then I'd get done for child abuse, where are all your Emails etc saying I'm wrong! PM's are PM's, grow up, but just the same I can't help thinking you have shot yourself in the foot, but then again you couldn't have, you don't have a rifle do you! I'm done with you, just enjoy your own little fantasies Walter Mitty! Edited March 28, 2013 by Deker Quote Link to post
richmcgin 32 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 i would like to see the history where i said that trans comes between super and hyper. BTW threats of violence just let you down even further. Your a bit behind i already posted our PMs from this morning. Quote Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 (edited) i would like to see the history where i said that trans comes between super and hyper. BTW threats of violence just let you down even further. Your a bit behind i already posted our PMs from this morning. richmcgin Posted 28 January 2012 - 10:19 AM Paulus you have a good point and well put, but as mr Hooks has ask i feel i must reply, we all know what supersonic is and we know that hypersonic is the next on the scale with the inbetween being covered my Mach, Transonic is the effect of diff air speeds at diff parts of an object between supersonic and hypersonic speeds, to give you more detail than that i would have to look it up and its not that important to me!!!!. ................................. Edited March 28, 2013 by Deker Quote Link to post
richmcgin 32 Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Well bugger me you got some thing right It does read like that I cant argue with that but its merely the ways its written and I have simply written hyper where ivshould have written sub, I think even a simpleton like you realises that, but you just want a row. And it doesnt change the fact that your theory was wrong, and it doesnt change the fact that you just lied about the content of our PMs and you are just an all round muppet . Quote Link to post
hutchey 147 Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Yawn, yawn. Take it offline now, for all our sakes. Quote Link to post
gunner223 0 Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I like the rws very consistant Quote Link to post
bear-uk 17 Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I've just picked up some RWS field ammo. Not had chance to use them yet but think there quieter than standard so possibly have less power. Time to Google. Quote Link to post
The Duncan 802 Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I like the rws very consistant Me too - they really match my Weihrauch a treat. Single hole groups at 55 yards plus and I can get a brick of them for £46, so pretty good on price too, given the quality. Quote Link to post
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