sandymere 8,263 Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Dietry fibre and healthy digestion. We all know or at least have heard about the importance of fibre in the diet for people but what about dogs. Dogs have a have a slightly different digestive tract in that they have a smaller less saculated colon and the colon is where the fibre plays an important role. In humans and to a lesser degree in dogs, although still fundamental to health, the colon contains large amounts of bacteria. These bacteria work in synergy with the host animal in a number of roles. By their very presence they take up the available space so that harmful bacteria will struggle to compete, they alsodigest fibre to produces fatty acids which have a positive effect on the heath of the cells of the colon, these are just two of the many positive effects they have. Basically the bacteria are part of the defence of the host species via this competing against invaders and improving the health of the colon and the colons own defensive cells. Bearing in mind the very positive effect these bacteria have its no wonder that we have begun to look for ways of helping them to help us. I can’t say I’m a great believer in taking bacteria, ie yogurt drinks etc, that contain so called good bacteria as most will be destroyed in the stomach acid but taking the fibre that the bacteria feed on sound sensible, these are often termed pre biotic. Pre biotics drinks etc are an expensive way of doing a simple job, when whole grains, fruit veg etc will do it very well. The dogs ancestors depended on small mammals for a large part of their diet, ie arctic wolves main prey being lemmings and hares through the summer, timber wolves field voles and European wolves today depending mainly on voles and rabbits all year round. Now if we consider that with the smaller prey items the whole carcass is consumed and if anyone has gutted many hares or rabbits they will know they contain a large volume of part digested vegetable matter in the gut. This part digested vegetable matter, green lefy, grass types with hares etc and seeds with smaller rodents, will provided a good mixture of fibres as well as carbohydrate to the wolfs diet. This can explain whys dogs, like humans, have specialist digestive enzymes to deal with this material whereas obligate carnivores like cats don’t. So we know that fibre plays an important role in digestive health and that dogs have evolved to digest vegetable matter that has been part digested by prey species so we can use this knowledge. Lemming digestion is a little rare but there are other ways of providing similar sources of both carbohydrate and fibre. Some people grate raw vegetables but as the majority of vegetable cell walls are made of cellulose which can’t be digested by the dog, or human, the carbs are not available to any great degree. It will supply some fibre but the quantity needed to promote good bacterial growth would not be very palatable. Cooking is how we pre digest vegetable matter for ourselves and so it can be used for our dogs. This starts to break down the cellulose walls releasing the contents ready for digestion, whilst the free cellulose remains to promote gut flora. Basically the cooking process makes the material palatable and enhances nutrient uptake. I wouldn’t say that people shouldn’t add grated veg to their dogs diet if they wish, mine occasionally eat young grass shoot which is similar but cooking works very well. So in conclusion, dogs have evolved to digest pre digested vegetable matter, this then supplies fibre to increase health/immunity to the colon as well as improving gastric through put and supply glucose for energy. We can easily replicate this by adding a proportion of cooked veg/cereals to our dogs diet. The two commonest ways of feeding ie home prepared diet such as meat with cereal products such as pasta, rice, oats, bread etc and completes will supply plenty of this material but those that rely on only meat with or without a very small amount of raw veg may well be able to improve the diet with the addition of a cooked cereal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chook1 184 Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 But dogs do not have the digestive system to cope with grains, if your going to be feeding a more natural diet/raw food, then grains like rice, oats bread etc shouldn't need to be added to the diet, otherwise whats the point of feeding natural you might as as well feed dry, grains are one also of the biggest sources of allergies in dogs. Internal anatomy and physiology Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice. Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released). Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs. WOLVES INGEST THE STOMACH CONTENTS OF THEIR PREY. This claim is repeated over and over as evidence that wolves and therefore dogs are omnivores. However, this assumption is just that--an assumption. It is not supported by the evidence available to us, and is therefore false! Wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey. Only if the prey is small enough (like the size of a rabbit) will they eat the stomach contents, which just happen to get consumed along with the entire animal. Otherwise, wolves will shake out the stomach contents of their large herbivorous prey before sometimes eating the stomach wall. The following quotations are taken from L. David Mech's 2003 book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. Mech (and the others who contributed to this book) is considered the world's leading wolf biologist, and this book is a compilation of 350 collective years of research, experiments, and careful field observations. These quotes are taken from chapter 4, The Wolf as a Carnivore. "Wolves usually tear into the body cavity of large prey and...consume the larger internal organs, such as lungs, heart, and liver. The large rumen [, which is one of the main stomach chambers in large ruminant herbivores,]...is usually punctured during removal and its contents spilled. The vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves, but the stomach lining and intestinal wall are consumed, and their contents further strewn about the kill site." (pg.123, emphasis added) "To grow and maintain their own bodies, wolves need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system." (pg.124, emphasis added). This next quote can be found on the Hunting and Meals page at Kerwood Wildlife Education Center. "The wolf's diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver, and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and its contents. Although some vegetable matter is taken separately, particularly berries, Canis lupus doesn't seem to digest them very well." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Think I've covered this in the post. Dogs do have the "friendly bacteria" and dogs do eat all prey animals of a large proportion of their diet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Born Hunter 17,960 Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I skimmed the post but gotta say what I took away I agree with sandy. My dogs hate grated raw veg but happily eat cooked veg left overs. I also occasionally add a small amount of a grain based food. I think the argument with raw veg is that a wild canids primary source of plant matter is the stomachs of its prey, as you have said, and this veg matter is not in the true sense raw. Cooking is surely the closest we can get to this natural source of plant matter? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted August 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 http://jn.nutrition.org/content/134/8/2022S.full Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunner123 103 Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Interesting watson, interesting. If i was feeding a herd of cows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bunnys 1,236 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 green bellies give all the veg matter any canine needseven when rinsed through atb bunnys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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