Without the "magic box"

[fat man 4,740]

Steve the only reason i said not to go diging on a windy day was that without locater it would be very hard to ear sound a terrier if it was at a fair depth,hard enough to hear sometimes on a frosty morn in shallow ground.There is a lot of different ground types about me from clay to sand to pure bog so sound can vary.And as for getting foxes to ground on a windy day id say a wet cold day would be even better especially on hilly ground where ther is no shelter from the elements.I would not put a terrier to ground without a collar on even if it was only 1ft in dept anymore why risk it,but i would like to think i would know how to find it if something went wrong or at least know how to go about looking for it.I have been out with young lads who never dug without locater and if pushed they would be lost if something went wrong,and things do go wrong,ive had collars bitten through so had to do it the old way.The worst place to put a terrier to ground is in bog,have you ever worked these,little cracks in the bog that can travel a couple of 100yds and usually full with water.Many a good dog was lost in these before the locater.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

we used to dig without locators many years ago. it was much more interesting. and THE. big challeng was finding the dog. the things that come to mind are lyeing in the wet cold mud almost upsidedown with my head and shoulders shoved as far down the hole as is humanly possible with my jacket pulled over the back of me to shut out any sounds from above. popping up for air to tel lads to keep still and shut up yacking. oh yea and to stop the blood running to my head we also used a stick to find what way a tube was running. the torch was used as well. with a dog that had a good voice it was often enough to give a rough guide to what area of the earth was most likely best checked first. then above ground it was a case of lyeing down on the ground in likely area's and pressing your ear tight to the ground and covering your other ear with your hand. how far the barking travels depends on how strong the dogs voice is and the type of ground your working. ps it helps if you clear any debri (leaves ...twigs etc) so you can hear clearer. and have less chance of a beastie climbing into your earhole. :thumbs if you are lucky and find an area where you can hear the muffled baying of your terrier you can probe with your bar to pinpoint a little better. and then dig down. a big hole is the order of the day. as it isnt an exact science and a lot of things can throw you off. sounds and vibrations travel better through roots so bear this in mind. i know its frowned on by the whizz kids in this day and age but it wasnt always possible to drop on your dog first time everytime. and sometimes a second or third hole had to be dug. or you did have to trench on .some earths that where rangy but not deep could be a rea test and it was standard to probe with a bar and drop in small pilot holes. to help locate. like i said not just as clinical. as modren times. but good craic all the same

[liamdelaney 2,586]

we used to dig without locators many years ago. it was much more interesting. and THE. big challeng was finding the dog. the things that come to mind are lyeing in the wet cold mud almost upsidedown with my head and shoulders shoved as far down the hole as is humanly possible with my jacket pulled over the back of me to shut out any sounds from above. popping up for air to tel lads to keep still and shut up yacking. oh yea and to stop the blood running to my head we also used a stick to find what way a tube was running. the torch was used as well. with a dog that had a good voice it was often enough to give a rough guide to what area of the earth was most likely best checked first. then above ground it was a case of lyeing down on the ground in likely area's and pressing your ear tight to the ground and covering your other ear with your hand. how far the barking travels depends on how strong the dogs voice is and the type of ground your working. ps it helps if you clear any debri (leaves ...twigs etc) so you can hear clearer. and have less chance of a beastie climbing into your earhole. :thumbs if you are lucky and find an area where you can hear the muffled baying of your terrier you can probe with your bar to pinpoint a little better. and then dig down. a big hole is the order of the day. as it isnt an exact science and a lot of things can throw you off. sounds and vibrations travel better through roots so bear this in mind. i know its frowned on by the whizz kids in this day and age but it wasnt always possible to drop on your dog first time everytime. and sometimes a second or third hole had to be dug. or you did have to trench on .some earths that where rangy but not deep could be a rea test and it was standard to probe with a bar and drop in small pilot holes. to help locate. like i said not just as clinical. as modren times. but good craic all the same

 

 

Memories Memories

[Cleanspade 3,322]

we used to dig without locators many years ago. it was much more interesting. and THE. big challeng was finding the dog. the things that come to mind are lyeing in the wet cold mud almost upsidedown with my head and shoulders shoved as far down the hole as is humanly possible with my jacket pulled over the back of me to shut out any sounds from above. popping up for air to tel lads to keep still and shut up yacking. oh yea and to stop the blood running to my head we also used a stick to find what way a tube was running. the torch was used as well. with a dog that had a good voice it was often enough to give a rough guide to what area of the earth was most likely best checked first. then above ground it was a case of lyeing down on the ground in likely area's and pressing your ear tight to the ground and covering your other ear with your hand. how far the barking travels depends on how strong the dogs voice is and the type of ground your working. ps it helps if you clear any debri (leaves ...twigs etc) so you can hear clearer. and have less chance of a beastie climbing into your earhole. :thumbs if you are lucky and find an area where you can hear the muffled baying of your terrier you can probe with your bar to pinpoint a little better. and then dig down. a big hole is the order of the day. as it isnt an exact science and a lot of things can throw you off. sounds and vibrations travel better through roots so bear this in mind. i know its frowned on by the whizz kids in this day and age but it wasnt always possible to drop on your dog first time everytime. and sometimes a second or third hole had to be dug. or you did have to trench on .some earths that where rangy but not deep could be a rea test and it was standard to probe with a bar and drop in small pilot holes. to help locate. like i said not just as clinical. as modren times. but good craic all the same

 

edited to add more than once we dug down to five or six feet . only to find a tube in the wal of the dig and the fox at a depth of three or four feet we even had one come out of the sidewall whilst still digging and use the digger as a step to help it out. i agree that the terriers where probably no better or worse . but a lot of the older lads i remember had better manners and a respect for each other and there chosen quarry that seems lacking in many now. i havnt done much for a while due to one thing and another. and dont think i'll ever get back to it as much. it aint the same anymore

[Mosby 355]

Collars have there use here just like anywhere else. I have very few instances that the earths I work aren't right on the water. Most are full of water. I have seen my share of electronics fail in my area. I know that I cannot fully rely on the box. I started using a thin bar years ago but I never really got the hang of it. I have heard of using all sorts of things. A screwdriver was the most surprising. I haven't had much experience with fox. I've only ever gotten on three. Nutria and coon are my dogs speciality. I'm starting to get fox calls this year and I know that the earths will be deeper than the shallow water filled dens I'm used to.I know that I'll need new tricks up my sleeve. Thus, I post on here so I can hear it from the foxxers. I've been around the digging near a decade now. But nutria are a sinch to dig. You just dig a bunch of them in a day. So your dog gets the earth time but not in one hole like england. I figured this topic would make me look naive but what the hell. The hunting is different here and I knew that a new style was going to be needed soon with more game opportunities opening up.

[steveS.Yorks 161]

Seems like ive misread some of the posts,the very mention of trenching makes my blood boil having suffered the destruction of some really good earths over the years by trenchers.

 

The best bit of advice i was ever given regarding location was,"dig to the bump" if you locate the vibration of the dog/fox sparring with each other your'e never far away.The best method is to lay on the ground and cover your head with your coat to dampen any background noise,sometimes its easy to hear sometimes you feel a slight vibration with your hand/foot depending on depth,when you get far enough down to crouch in the the dig [assuming it was that deep] we would cover the hole with a coat again and the bloke digging would listen and feel for any indications,works very well even on windy days.Never really carried a probe,but we often used a tree branch to have a bit of a poke to locate the tube,who hasn't?

 

How many times have we been digging and cursed the strong wind because we couldn't hear what was happening properly? It took a while for the penny to drop,but we seemed to have a lot of sucsess on windy days,the simple answer is foxes cant hear the approach of any potential danger as well on windy days,they prefer the safety of being to ground,wet weather can take 2 or 3 days to drive them to ground depending on the available cover,wind puts them down straight away in my experiance,there could be some variation because of terrain/cover but we hunted a varied assortment of land and allways found windy days very reliable.

 

Some mates once found themselves in a bad situation,a bitch had self entered a large earth in a deep dyke,the earth/earths ran the length of the dyke and they had no idea where she was,at around 16 feet deep and no locator it wasn't going to be easy to even find the right earth,or so they thought.At the top of the bank was a line of trees,i got some funny looks as i walked to each tree and put my ear against the trunk,at the 3rd tree i could clearly hear the bitch baying,the sound being transmitted up from the roots to the trunk,all ended well after some serious digging,just thought that was worth a mention.

yis steve.

[liamdelaney 2,586]

Seems like ive misread some of the posts,the very mention of trenching makes my blood boil having suffered the destruction of some really good earths over the years by trenchers.

 

The best bit of advice i was ever given regarding location was,"dig to the bump" if you locate the vibration of the dog/fox sparring with each other your'e never far away.The best method is to lay on the ground and cover your head with your coat to dampen any background noise,sometimes its easy to hear sometimes you feel a slight vibration with your hand/foot depending on depth,when you get far enough down to crouch in the the dig [assuming it was that deep] we would cover the hole with a coat again and the bloke digging would listen and feel for any indications,works very well even on windy days.Never really carried a probe,but we often used a tree branch to have a bit of a poke to locate the tube,who hasn't?

 

How many times have we been digging and cursed the strong wind because we couldn't hear what was happening properly? It took a while for the penny to drop,but we seemed to have a lot of sucsess on windy days,the simple answer is foxes cant hear the approach of any potential danger as well on windy days,they prefer the safety of being to ground,wet weather can take 2 or 3 days to drive them to ground depending on the available cover,wind puts them down straight away in my experiance,there could be some variation because of terrain/cover but we hunted a varied assortment of land and allways found windy days very reliable.

 

Some mates once found themselves in a bad situation,a bitch had self entered a large earth in a deep dyke,the earth/earths ran the length of the dyke and they had no idea where she was,at around 16 feet deep and no locator it wasn't going to be easy to even find the right earth,or so they thought.At the top of the bank was a line of trees,i got some funny looks as i walked to each tree and put my ear against the trunk,at the 3rd tree i could clearly hear the bitch baying,the sound being transmitted up from the roots to the trunk,all ended well after some serious digging,just thought that was worth a mention.

yis steve.

 

The old timers when I was a chap used timber poles to listen and locate.

[Mosby 355]

Some mates once found themselves in a bad situation,a bitch had self entered a large earth in a deep dyke,the earth/earths ran the length of the dyke and they had no idea where she was,at around 16 feet deep and no locator it wasn't going to be easy to even find the right earth,or so they thought.At the top of the bank was a line of trees,i got some funny looks as i walked to each tree and put my ear against the trunk,at the 3rd tree i could clearly hear the bitch baying,the sound being transmitted up from the roots to the trunk,all ended well after some serious digging,just thought that was worth a mention.

yis steve.

 

That is one of the best stories I've heard. That is awesome.

[Guest busterdog]

I've used the tree trick a few times and the fence posts lol, i still use a four foot bar (not all the time) but it's always in the van, i find the shovel as good as a bar, stamp it in and press your ear to the handle so the corner of the handle fits snug in your ear.

[Mosby 355]

Haven't heard of the shovel trick either. Nice and handy I'm sure. Gonna start trying these out. Summer time is diggin time here.

[p3d 879]

Collars have there use here just like anywhere else. I have very few instances that the earths I work aren't right on the water. Most are full of water. I have seen my share of electronics fail in my area. I know that I cannot fully rely on the box. I started using a thin bar years ago but I never really got the hang of it. I have heard of using all sorts of things. A screwdriver was the most surprising. I haven't had much experience with fox. I've only ever gotten on three. Nutria and coon are my dogs speciality. I'm starting to get fox calls this year and I know that the earths will be deeper than the shallow water filled dens I'm used to.I know that I'll need new tricks up my sleeve. Thus, I post on here so I can hear it from the foxxers. I've been around the digging near a decade now. But nutria are a sinch to dig. You just dig a bunch of them in a day. So your dog gets the earth time but not in one hole like england. I figured this topic would make me look naive but what the hell. The hunting is different here and I knew that a new style was going to be needed soon with more game opportunities opening up.

 

The "B&F" collars are sealed units, Switched and recharged from the outside.

They also use a plastic coated red collar with brass fittings,

coupled with a stainless "Bomerang Tag" should prove watertight and reliable.

 

IMO it's never naive to ask a question, only naive to think we know all the answers!

 

Found these photo's on the internet. (Entering,Listening,both taken in 1939)

Note the lads are congregated at an entrance/opening,(like listening to an old radio)

A lot of information could be had from listening to the baying of the terrier.

Some guys knew there dog well enough to know what quarry it was working.

 

T-bar today could be made from 16mm (5/8") stainless bar.

About 4 or 5 feet long is useful. In the past they were made from spring steel.

(The bar came off of a farm machine, I can't remember what it was called?)

If you file a flat portion 150mm (6") above the tip 1mm deep,

When you break through to the tube you can withdraw the bar,clean it,

and probe the bottom of the tube and inspect a sample to determine if the soil is dry or under water.

 

I am guessing that the person who advised you about the screwdriver was an auto-mechanic.

They use a long screwdriver to listen and pinpoint problems in engines.

This is an old mechanics' trick, but relies on the same method as the Tree,Post,Shovel etc..

 

When you "listen" for the baying/movement underground.

You are searching for low level sound (under 20Hz.)if the dog is deep.

This sound travels better through the soil/clay.

This is virtually inaudible, but can be felt.

By touching you ear to something in contact with the source,

your inner ear can feel the sound before you hear it.

(That may be why the kid that helped you worked so well, he was open to all sounds).

If you "hear" this once, you will become aware of what to listen for.

 

A demonstration of this was easy back in the day before locators.

The guys you dug with could tell you when to listen for it.

They had the experience to pass on to guys starting out.

This would only matter if the earth was deep.

I am not sure how to describe this, but here goes!

 

If you stick a T-bar/Shovel in the earth,

(back garden or else people will think you are crazy)

above the grey-water pipe leaving your home.

And place the front outer part of your ear against the handle.

You should hear little if the pipe is empty.

Now get someone to flush a cistern.

You should clearly hear the impact as the water travels past.

This would be the "type" of sound you are after.

 

ATB

Edited March 29, 2011 by p3d

[fat man 4,740]

Love the photo's p3d

[Cleanspade 3,322]

Collars have there use here just like anywhere else. I have very few instances that the earths I work aren't right on the water. Most are full of water. I have seen my share of electronics fail in my area. I know that I cannot fully rely on the box. I started using a thin bar years ago but I never really got the hang of it. I have heard of using all sorts of things. A screwdriver was the most surprising. I haven't had much experience with fox. I've only ever gotten on three. Nutria and coon are my dogs speciality. I'm starting to get fox calls this year and I know that the earths will be deeper than the shallow water filled dens I'm used to.I know that I'll need new tricks up my sleeve. Thus, I post on here so I can hear it from the foxxers. I've been around the digging near a decade now. But nutria are a sinch to dig. You just dig a bunch of them in a day. So your dog gets the earth time but not in one hole like england. I figured this topic would make me look naive but what the hell. The hunting is different here and I knew that a new style was going to be needed soon with more game opportunities opening up.

 

The "B&F" collars are sealed units, Switched and recharged from the outside.

They also use a plastic coated red collar with brass fittings,

coupled with a stainless "Bomerang Tag" should prove watertight and reliable.

 

IMO it's never naive to ask a question, only naive to think we know all the answers!

 

Found these photo's on the internet. (Entering,Listening,both taken in 1939)

Note the lads are congregated at an entrance/opening,(like listening to an old radio)

A lot of information could be had from listening to the baying of the terrier.

Some guys knew there dog well enough to know what quarry it was working.

 

T-bar today could be made from 16mm (5/8") stainless bar.

About 4 or 5 feet long is useful. In the past they were made from spring steel.

(The bar came off of a farm machine, I can't remember what it was called?)

If you file a flat portion 150mm (6") above the tip 1mm deep,

When you break through to the tube you can withdraw the bar,clean it,

and probe the bottom of the tube and inspect a sample to determine if the soil is dry or under water.

 

I am guessing that the person who advised you about the screwdriver was an auto-mechanic.

They use a long screwdriver to listen and pinpoint problems in engines.

This is an old mechanics' trick, but relies on the same method as the Tree,Post,Shovel etc..

 

When you "listen" for the baying/movement underground.

You are searching for low level sound (under 20Hz.)if the dog is deep.

This sound travels better through the soil/clay.

This is virtually inaudible, but can be felt.

By touching you ear to something in contact with the source,

your inner ear can feel the sound before you hear it.

(That may be why the kid that helped you worked so well, he was open to all sounds).

If you "hear" this once, you will become aware of what to listen for.

 

A demonstration of this was easy back in the day before locators.

The guys you dug with could tell you when to listen for it.

They had the experience to pass on to guys starting out.

This would only matter if the earth was deep.

I am not sure how to describe this, but here goes!

 

If you stick a T-bar/Shovel in the earth,

(back garden or else people will think you are crazy)

above the grey-water pipe leaving your home.

And place the front outer part of your ear against the handle.

You should hear little if the pipe is empty.

Now get someone to flush a cistern.

You should clearly hear the impact as the water travels past.

This would be the "type" of sound you are after.

 

ATB

 

good post and pictures. the waterboard use istening sticks to help find leaks

i'm surprised how few posts with experienced veiws there has been very interesting topic with the potential to pass on information that could save the life of a terrier

[madgerboy 11]

When I started with a mk1 box it did nt last to diner time mostly so it was ear to ground and spit,which we always bring anyhow.when digging my dogs while I lived at my father in laws he would hide my box and collar and say "listen ye wee fat c@@t if ye want to learn ye ll learn better doing it old style".nearly every dig was without a box for 2 seasons and we learnt and got on fine.Funny thing was when I started digging his dog which we bred he would nt let me out without the box and collar lol.

We use a 16mm stainless bar 4 ft long and although we use a bellman now it's a part of the equipment and I haven't met an Irish digging man who would go digging without one.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

bought a doctors old stethoscope leave the rest to your imagination