Electrolytes etc

[Fat-Ferret 857]

Can anyone recommend any of the electrolytes I have heard of? I would like to give them a try. Also anything else which might help my dog as well, I have heard of rubbing them down with some sort of stuff before running to help the muscles, But I have no idea what its called.

 

FF

[Huntmad 1]

just a general rub down mate don have to use anything just lossen the musscles

[Mr Hunter 31]

A couple came to my Lurcher Racing yesterday from the Lurcher Link charity and they had 8 dogs in the van and their doggy first aid box was very imressive.After racing they syringed 20ml of a horse electolyte into their dogs mouths.They said it was like the dogs one but a lot stronger and dont need as much.And also had a good muscle rub they used.I will try and find out the names of both they used for you, i know the horse electrolyte was called Apple ?something? and the mix was a teaspoon to a litre of water.Ill yry contact them now for you.

[kiz 0]

Can anyone recommend any of the electrolytes I have heard of? I would like to give them a try. Also anything else which might help my dog as well, I have heard of rubbing them down with some sort of stuff before running to help the muscles, But I have no idea what its called.

 

FF

Dogs do not need electrolytes as they do not sweat, they thermoregulate by panting.

Just make sure your dog has plenty of water.

[Guest pikey]

Can anyone recommend any of the electrolytes I have heard of? I would like to give them a try. Also anything else which might help my dog as well, I have heard of rubbing them down with some sort of stuff before running to help the muscles, But I have no idea what its called.

 

FF

Dogs do not need electrolytes as they do not sweat, they thermoregulate by panting.

Just make sure your dog has plenty of water.

dogs do sweat........they sweat out through there pads !!!!!!!!! and they do lose electrolytes when they pant !!!!!!!!!!!

can you please tell me how a dog gets electrolytes from water !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Water has no flavor so it is difficult for most active dogs to consume enough to stay well hydrated. its known that dogs will consume more of a flavored drink than that of just plain water. In addition, water contains no electrolytes and therefore cannot help to replace electrolytes such as sodium, chloride and potassium.not keeping your dog hydrated after hunting / running, can cause serious problems.

[kiz 0]

Can anyone recommend any of the electrolytes I have heard of? I would like to give them a try. Also anything else which might help my dog as well, I have heard of rubbing them down with some sort of stuff before running to help the muscles, But I have no idea what its called.

 

FF

Dogs do not need electrolytes as they do not sweat, they thermoregulate by panting.

Just make sure your dog has plenty of water.

dogs do sweat........they sweat out through there pads !!!!!!!!! and they do lose electrolytes when they pant !!!!!!!!!!!

can you please tell me how a dog gets electrolytes from water !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Water has no flavor so it is difficult for most active dogs to consume enough to stay well hydrated. its known that dogs will consume more of a flavored drink than that of just plain water. In addition, water contains no electrolytes and therefore cannot help to replace electrolytes such as sodium, chloride and potassium.not keeping your dog hydrated after hunting / running, can cause serious problems.

 

Spot on p***y, very well said, could not put it better my self..

 

Frank.

Dogs pant – their mechanism is to evaporate water through breathing and their mouth. When the electrolytes are passed in saliva and the water evaporates from their tongue and mucosal surfaces of their mouth the electrolytes stay on their surface just like our skin when we sweat; however it is still in their body.

All they have to do is drink water to replace everything. So those drinks that have electrolytes in them for dogs are a complete waste of your money.

Dogs do not lose electrolytes during a hot day or performing an athletic event. They do however lose a lot of water and that needs to be replenished.

[doris 6]

A couple came to my Lurcher Racing yesterday from the Lurcher Link charity and they had 8 dogs in the van and their doggy first aid box was very imressive.After racing they syringed 20ml of a horse electolyte into their dogs mouths.They said it was like the dogs one but a lot stronger and dont need as much.And also had a good muscle rub they used.I will try and find out the names of both they used for you, i know the horse electrolyte was called Apple ?something? and the mix was a teaspoon to a litre of water.Ill yry contact them now for you.

I use Recharge. However it is not a good idea using horse electyrolytes for dogs as dogs sweat differently to horses therefore the electrolytes they require are different . . . see cut and paste from Recharge

 

RECHARGE

Oral Rehydration Concentrate for Greyhounds

 

Special Features

Recharge for Greyhounds is one of the most successful greyhound specific products worldwide. The name "Recharge" is applicable to a product that rapidly replenishes electrolytes and fluids after travelling and racing. The product lives up to its name in providing a rapid restoration of fluid and vitality after stress periods.

 

The formulation is specifically matched to the needs of the racing greyhound, containing a high potassium to sodium ratio, citrate salt as a buffering agent and glucose to enhance rapid uptake of electrolytes and restore vitality. It is a different formulation to that contained in Recharge for Horses, as that formulation is designed to rapidly replace sweat loss after exercise in horses. Both products are totally different to the high sodium, salty tasting sports drinks available for human athletes and sports persons. These are not suited to racing greyhounds (or horses).

 

Recharge for Greyhounds is normally well accepted by greyhounds when given as a 10mL measure into 250mL (1 cupful) of cool water as a made-up drink. However, some greyhounds may not accept it initially in water. The water can be mixed 50:50 with milk to improve its acceptance, or in pure milk if necessary. However excess milk in a greyhound not accustomed to it can cause bowel intolerance to lactose, and result in low grade diarrhoea and risk of further dehydration.

 

Recharge concentrate can also be administered over the tongue by syringe, and this is the method by which it is most commonly given in the pre-race period, or after racing prior to the return journey, particularly during hot weather.

 

Note: When administering Recharge concentrate over the tongue do not exceed a 10mL volume at a single dose, and always provide fresh, cool water, or milky-water for the greyhound to drink to replenish fluids. Recharge will increase the thirst response, and fluid must be available immediately after dosage.

 

Avoid providing an excessive volume of fluid to drink prior to racing as the race-weight limit may be exceeded.

 

Benefits of the Formulation

Each 10mL of concentrate contains:

 

Ingredient

Amount

Benefit

 

Sodium

276mg

Essential for nerve and muscle function and thirst response after exercise.

 

Potassium

304mg

Higher amounts to counteract losses from travelling and pre-race excitement.

 

Chloride

433mg

Essential for kidney function and excretion.

 

Citrate

129mg

Provides indirect alkaline reserve after fast exercise to neutralise acids in muscle cells and blood.

 

Magnesium

29.8mg

Essential in enzyme action and energy production in muscles.

 

Glucose

2,600mg

Promotes rapid uptake of sodium and other salts as well as improves palatability and energy restoration.

 

Phosphate

174mg

Aids alkaline buffering action after fast galloping.

 

Note: Glycine

No glycine

Glycine is often included in rehydration fluids - it has no benefit in healthy animals and is very unstable during storage.

 

Handy Hints for Specific Purpose Use

 

HINT

Standard Doses

Before Travelling: 5mL Recharge in half a cup (125mL) of water.

During Travelling: hot weather, excitable greyhounds - 5mL Recharge in half a cup of water (125mL) every 1½-2 hours.

At Kennelling: Ensure bodyweight is not outside the ± 1kg racing limit for the greyhound.

Non-dehydrated, quiet kennel greyhounds: Give 5mL Recharge in half a cup (125 mL) water.

Dehydrated, Nervous, Excitable greyhounds: Give 10mL Recharge in 1 cupful water (limit amount to avoid exceeding weight limit).

After Racing: Give free access to 10mL Recharge in 1 cup of water prior to return travelling.

 

HINT

Cramping Greyhounds - dehydrated or excitable greyhounds

As well as 100iu White-E daily, 3g Betacel daily, and 10g Calci-D daily in feed, give 10mL Recharge in 1 cup of water morning and evening. Provide a bowl of made-up Recharge drink, and a bowl of fresh water, as a choice in the kennel.

 

HINT

Nursing Bitches - hot weather, large litters

Provide 40mL Recharge in 1 litre bowl of water at all times, with a bowl of fresh water as a choice to replace fluids and electrolytes depleted by milk production.

 

HINT

Pre-Race Dehydration - hot weather

Test for dehydration by pulling up a fold of skin on shoulder and estimating speed of skin return. If slow return, and greyhound is sunken in eye and is tucked up in the gut - it is dehydrated. Give 10mL Recharge Concentrate over the tongue morning and evening for 2 days prior to racing, provide fluid to drink and moisten the dry food by soaking for at least 15-20 minutes before feeding.

[sandymere 8,263]

Recharge advocate their product but can give little evidence to show how it really improves performance in dogs. It was developed for horses as a replacement for the salt, in the main sodium, that they lose in sweat when competing. As Kiz states dogs don't really sweat in the terms of a horse or human then where are they losing electrolytes from? Basically you are just giving the dog salt water to drink!

[doris 6]

Recharge advocate their product but can give little evidence to show how it really improves performance in dogs. It was developed for horses as a replacement for the salt, in the main sodium, that they lose in sweat when competing. As Kiz states dogs don't really sweat in the terms of a horse or human then where are they losing electrolytes from? Basically you are just giving the dog salt water to drink!

Sandy, i have always read your posts with great interest as they always come across as well informed and backed up with some sound evidence. I use recharge after my running dog suffered from a mild bout of exertional rhabdomyolysis (have I spellt that right?) after the advice of a an ex greyhound vet (based in honiton, not so far from you I reckon). So far I have not seen a repeat of the ER, so from my perspective I am fairly hapy that the recharge is having some beneficial effect.

 

Any ways, looking at your strap, I reckon your probably a similar age as me, so if ever your kicking your heals in Hampshire let me know and I'll take you for a beer and a chin wag.

 

ATB - Doris

[sandymere 8,263]

Thank you Doris, if I ever get your way I will give you a PM.

I wouldn't want to cry down the vet as I was not there so don't know the whole picture so I will stick to generalisations. #

This was an answer to a like post on rhabdomyolysis and electrolytes.

"The reason I would hesitate to give a salt based drink if there is muscle breakdown through running that little bit to much to the extent of causing rhabdomyolysis (RMS)is because the cells (intracellular) salt is potassium (KCL) and the bloods (extracellar) is sodium (Na) and the KCL will released into the blood stream from the damaged cells, giving high extra cellular levels. Adding more KCL, in the form of an electolye drink, is treading on thin ice. High levels will unbalence the concentrations between these two fluid compartment which can lead to one drawing fluid from the other to try to equalise the concentration of the two compartments, dehydrating the muscle cells, also high blood KCL can lead to changes in the heart function leading to cardiac arrest.

I'm sure that giving electrolyte solutions to an otherwise healthy dog is unlikely to do any real harm, if there is loss through illness such as loose stool or vomiting then it is very usefull, but if there is any risk that there may be an electrolyte disturbence then plain water unless there is bloods showing what solution should be used is proberly safest."

 

A little evidence, these dogs were under massive stress.

 

“At last year's meeting of the International Sled Dog Veterinary Medical Association, Dr. William Beltran from France reported on studies that he did on the electrolyte requirements of sled dogs. In his opinion, according to a news report in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, properly trained and conditioned sled dogs maintained on high-quality diets and not affected by vomiting or diarrhea do not need electrolyte supplements……..

. (In a study by Dr. Hinchcliff and colleagues, marathon racing huskies were using 11,200 calories per day during competition. That amounts to about 20 cups of a premium dog food for a 40 pound dog.) If these marathon huskies do not require electrolyte supplementation……………..â€

Do lurchers? He goes on to explain,

“The most likely explanation for why dogs do not need electrolytes and people do is that people thermoregulate by sweating, dogs thermoregulate by panting. Human sweat contains electrolytes (that's why sweat tastes salty), and the electrolytes in sweat are lost to the body. Panting does not result in large losses of electrolytes.

So, save the electrolyte solutions for yourselves. Make sure your dogs have plenty of clean water, and spend the money you might have spent on electrolyte solutions on your dogs instead. "

[paddybarr 77]

my main concern would be replenishing glycogen, i use maltadexrin during heavy work and post work

 

copied from Energy and the Working Dog -

 

Carbohydrates are stored in muscle as glycogen. Muscle uses glycogen during the initial

moments of activity and for bursts of speed and power (primarily fueling fast twitch fibers).

Glycogen stores are relatively small and can be rapidly depleted leading to muscle weakness

and fatigue. However, diets high in carbohydrates can lead to deconditioning (poor

endurance, obesity, muscle injury). For a working dog, carbohydrates should be limited to

10-15% of the total energy in the diet. To improve the working dog’s use of carbohydrates,

one should focus on replenishing glycogen stores and slowing glycogen depletion.

 

Replenishing glycogen stores is accomplished by providing a “good carbohydrate†at an

appropriate time. Muscle cells have GLUT4 pathways that are active during exercise and for

up to 30 minutes after exercise. These pathways allow for the uptake of carbohydrate into the

muscle without the release of insulin. Simple sugars (glucose, dextrose, fructose, corn

syrup) cause an insulin release that leads to subsequent hypoglycemia (low blood sugar).

Complex starches (bread, rice, grains) take too long to be digested and absorbed. Both cause

fluid imbalances that can contribute to diarrhea and dehydration. Maltodextrin is a small

complex carbohydrate and is the ideal carbohydrate for this purpose. Maltodextrin is rapidly

absorbed without an insulin release or fluid imbalance and is readily utilized by the GLUT4

pathway. When a maltodextrin supplement is given within 30 minutes of exercise, up to 85%

of pre-exercise glycogen levels are restored. Without this targeted approach, only 40% of pre-

exercise levels are restored

[Rainmaker 7]

An interesting read, though a little one-sided paddybarr From what I can gather, the information you quoted was initially taken from Canine Athletes and Carbohydrate Management During Exercise (Reynolds, A and Cline, J). The research both sources are taken from was (admitted by the authors) based on human studies. Dogs and humans, as you know, have very different metabolisms.

 

What of dogs who are running on fat, which is after all their natural energy source? In the scenario above (>60% of calories from fat) the dog is well into fat adaptation - certainly if it has been on the diet for at least three or four weeks - and receiving excellent hydration from this. As I'm sure you know, fat metabolism provides around 107g of water to the dog from for every 100g of fat (almost twice the amount of water produced by carbohydrate metabolism) and is an ideal energy source for dogs, providing twice the amount of calories per gram as carbohydrates or protein. With that much water available during exertion a fat adapted dog is also much less likely to become dehydrated during exertion compared to a dog fed on carbohydrates in preference to high protein and fat.

 

Loading a dog with carbohydrates (maltodextrin or other) may well help to replenish glycogen stores if they are low, but so does gluconeogenesis and glycogenesis (the conversion of fat and protein to glucose/glycogen). Gluconeogenesis and glycogenesis come with the added benefit of providing protein for muscle repair and fat for near-instant ATP conversion. Again as I'm sure you know, carbohydrates (whatever the type) have the disadvantage that they cannot be used to repair or rebuild muscle tissue in an exterted dog as can the amino acids in animal protein, but rather any excess is converted to and stored as fat.

 

Don't forget that the dog running on fat as his energy source will use this instead of glycogen stores to begin with, so replacing them with maltodextrin becomes moot! If a dog runs low on glycogen he simply switches to running off the more efficient fat anyway. Whatever glycogen is present is only burned during the first couple of minutes of exertion, whereas the dog can and will run for many hours off fat. A dog running on high carbohydrates/glycogen will simply 'tie up' and suffer from extreme lactic acid build-up. This is contrary to human physiology, as we DO benefit from carbohydrate loading. Using human research in canine exercise physiology is misleading and incorrect.

 

Nutritionists have known for years that the main source of energy for the performance dog must come from fat or carbohydrate. The debate has been which of these two components is most important in increasing performance and endurance. Most of us are familiar with the popular "carbohydrate loading" done by marathon runners prior to a race. A large plate of pasta and bread the day before an endurance run increases the stored carbohydrate (glycogen) in the runner's muscles and allows for better performance.

 

Many dog trainers have merely transposed the success of carbohydrate loading in humans to the canine athlete. But, the effect in dogs has not been the same.

 

In the early seventies, it was observed that sled dogs fed high-carbohydrate rations actually had poor endurance and even a stiff gait while racing.(Reynolds, Arleigh et al: The Effect of Diet on Sled Dog Performance, Oxidative Capacity, Skeletal Muscle Microstructure, and Muscle Glycogen Metabolism in Proceedings of the 1996 Iams International Nutrition Symposium, 1996.) It was theorized that excess glycogen led to increased lactic acid build up in muscle tissue and decreased the dogs' performance. He switched the dogs to a high-protein, high-fat diet and performance increased while the stiff gait disappeared. The nutritionist never got to prove his lactic acid theory because the sled dog owners would not let him put their dogs back on the high-carbohydrate ration for research purposes. They were sold on the high-fat food!

 

Coffman, M. Conditioning the Performance Dog

 

During sustained exercise, fatty acid oxidation is the primary source of energy for the muscles. Increasing the efficiency of fat metabolism spares the body's use of carbohydrates, and since most dogs have in excess of 10 to 50 times more energy stored in fat than in muscle glycogen (carbohydrate), this may boost the animal's exercise performance.

 

Iams studies have shown that in trained sled dogs as in ordinary dogs, exercise performance was enhanced by switching from a low-fat to a high-fat diet (from 25% to 65% of calories from fat), as indicated by increased:

 

• Mitochondrial volume- Increasing the volume of the muscle cell's "power houses" increased the capacity for fatty acid oxidation.
• Aerobic capacity- Muscles were better equipped to utilize fatty acids for fuel because of increased ability to utilize oxygen.
• Fatty acid oxidation- By increasing fatty acid utilization during exercise, more energy was released for the muscles to use.

When dogs were switched back to a low-fat diet, all of these criteria decreased to their previous values.

 

These results indicated that by increasing the availability of fat stores and capacity to metabolize fat for energy, a high-fat diet promotes exercise endurance in canine athletes.

 

Reynolds AJ, et al. The effect of diet on sled dog performance, oxidative capacity, skeletal muscle microstructure, and muscle glycogen metabolism. Recent Advances in Canine and Feline Nutritional Research: Proceedings of the 1996 Iams International Nutrition Symposium. Carey DP, Norton SA, Bolser SM, eds. Wilmington, OH. 1996. 181-198.

 

Whereas your post stated that:

 

When a maltodextrin supplement is given within 30 minutes of exercise, up to 85%

of pre-exercise glycogen levels are restored. Without this targeted approach, only 40% of pre-

exercise levels are restored

 

Again, interesting. But it doesn't say how long in either case glycogen stores take to reach 100%? It almost sounds like it's trying to say you can only restore 'enough' glycogen by feeding maltodextrin, but of course if this was the case dogs not given maltodextrin would soon die. Did the article continue to say how long the maltodextrin-fed and non-maltodextrin-fed dogs took to reach 100% glycogen storage again, what diets they were running on and whether they were fat adapted or not? Those are important extraneous variables and we can't get a clear picture without them.

 

... Actually ignore that little paragraph directly above. Having found the original source of your information while writing this reply, it (the original research) says 24 hours to hit 65% VO2. CRUCIALLY the article carries on to say "in dogs fed a normal ration."... What of dogs fed a more appropriate diet which is very high in fat, high in protein and almost nil in carbohydrates to begin with? They don't actually seem to suffer the problems under investigation anyway, so again supplementation becomes moot. You're almost creating a problem to fix it!

 

It has been known for many years that high-carbohydrate foods can cause a stiff gait in endurance dogs. Further research documented the value of fat as an energy source. The VO2 Max* of highly conditioned dogs was recorded. Subsequently, the VO2 Max of ordinary dogs on low-fat diets was compared to their VO2 Max on high-fat diets. The levels of VO2 Max for the ordinary dogs placed on a high-fat diet equalled that of the highly conditioned dogs. These findings suggest that diet may play a critical role in endurance, and specifically that feeding high levels of dietary fat may increase VO2 Max and the maximal rate of fat use for energy. For the field trial retriever and other field dogs, this could result in better endurance and greater performance in competitive events.

Coffman, M and Altom, E. Does Diet Affect Field Trial Performance?

 

In the same vein:

 

No lower limit or minimal requirement for carbohydrate has been established in the dogs. Ketosis and associated sodium depletion occur in humans suddenly shifted to low carbohydrate diets. Dogs are much more resistant than humans to ketosis when fasted and fed 100% fat. Sled dogs fed a high fat (66% energy) and zero carbohydrate diet at twice maintenance has very low blood levels of acetoacetate and betahydroxybutyrate 3 and 9 weeks. There is no evidence that dogs have an essential nutrient requirement for glucose, using nutrient in the strict sense of something assimilated from the diet. Tissue utilization of glucose accounts for about 25% of the total resting metabolism in dogs and other animals. Clearly this can be synthesized from nutrient precursors of glucose, (e.g. amino acids and glycerol, in dogs fed zero carbohydrate). In this respect, dogs resemble ruminants, chicks, rats, and cats. Even in man, the metabolic changes that immediately follow dietary intake of carbohydrate deprivation abate with time. Thus, there is no minimal daily intake of carbohydrates recommended for man. It has been suggested that some unassimilated carbohydrate is beneficial mechanically in facilitating regular bowel movements. Regularity is synonymous with health in the eyes of anally-oriented people. The anthropomorphic projection of this ideal to dogs has no established medical basis.

 

"Canine Nutrition", DS Kronfeld, University of Pennsylvania, School of Veterinary Medicine, 1972″, excerpt from article, "Some Nutritional Problems in Dogs", page 32-33.

 

Glyconeogenesis and gluconeogenesis provide amply for glycogen replenishment in a dog fed even a zero carbohydrate diet. In fact, studies show that dogs fed zero carbohydrates, period, run faster races (greyhounds) and last longer in endurance (sled dogs). So perhaps it would be more gainful to look at switching your dogs to a >60% calories-from-fat diet rather than bulking up on carbohydrates in whatever form? Even lowering (rather than eliminating) carbohydrates has a beneficial effect. For example:

 

In a study of racing greyhounds, Hill found that a diet containing higher fat and protein and lower carbohydrate increased performance. "We compared a 32 percent fat, 25 percent protein and 43 percent carbohydrate diet to one with 25 percent fat, 21 percent protein and 54 percent carbohydrate." He says, "These greyhounds ran an average of 0.2 seconds faster - the difference between winning and losing a race - when fed the diet containing higher fat and protein and lower carbohydrate."

 

In summary, fat adapted dogs do not benefit greatly from supplementation, especially with maltodextrin or other carbohydrates. Existing pathways for glucose regeneration from fat and protein, and ATP production, are amply sufficient in dogs fed on a high fat, high protein, low (or nil) carbohydrate diet.

 

Discuss...

[kiz 0]

Think you will find that "Energy and the Working Dog" is a short paper written by Angie Unsitz, who, surprise surprise, just happens to market her own "Glyco-Gen" products containing maltodextrin.

http://www.k9energyedge.com/

[Rainmaker 7]

Think you will find that "Energy and the Working Dog" is a short paper written by Angie Unsitz, who, surprise surprise, just happens to market her own "Glyco-Gen" products containing maltodextrin.

http://www.k9energyedge.com/

 

Sorry mate I should have been clearer. I meant that the paper itself seemed to be based on the Cline paper (almost word for word in places) which was taken out of context in some ways.

[kiz 0]

Think you will find that "Energy and the Working Dog" is a short paper written by Angie Unsitz, who, surprise surprise, just happens to market her own "Glyco-Gen" products containing maltodextrin.

http://www.k9energyedge.com/

 

Sorry mate I should have been clearer. I meant that the paper itself seemed to be based on the Cline paper (almost word for word in places) which was taken out of context in some ways.

No, I understood that. Just another case of someone twisting something to suit their own "commercial" ambitions.