Open FAC

[Mr_Logic 5]

We're going to meet up at a local pub for a chat. I'm really hoping I can come up with something for him, I'm pretty sure I can. I've had some funny ideas put forward by the FEO in question myself. One that really sticks in my mind was on a land check. I couldn't shoot over a path across a field that was in clear view so totally safe, even though it wasn't a documented footpath (trespassers short cut)! I just agreed with him and moved on, but it's total isn't it.

 

They also wanted to see evidence of Deer damage before they'd allow me to shoot them on the ground

 

I find the best way to go is to supply whatever is required to get what you want. Once you have it you can carry on as normal (following the law as it's written, not how they want it to be).

The system we have drives me absolutely MAD. FEOs (some anyway) think they can monitor everything, impose conditions which aren't in law etc. We the Shooting Community need to march or something to get the government to listen and place one set of controls across the entire country.

 

It is my understanding that deer control must be justified by first using non-lethal methods, but the FEO's place is not to check this before saying Yay or Nay on the actual use of a rifle on any given land. It's bad enough the common mentoring condition for shooting deer, but I can at least understand this.

[njc110381 0]

I'm just getting out of my mentoring condition now, but I asked for it that way to start with. I think (and this may annoy some of you) that some kind of mentoring or DSC is important for new FAC holders, but think it should cover all calibres not just Deer rifles. Just think what can happen if you get your backstop judgement wrong with a .243 (the smallest Deer cal.) or even just a .22lr. These things can fly a long way and take some stopping! I think some first hand experience under the watchful eye of an experienced shot is very important for safety. It should be seen as enjoyable. I certainly liked going out with Mike (my mentor) and being told how these things work. The best bit so far was a large Hummel that ran 250 odd yards after a good hit, and it was just getting dark. We spent over an hour searching for it following blood spots on the ground, and eventually I found it stone dead in a wood. I have no idea what I'd have done on my own, so the evening was extremely valuable to me. I hope to one day do the same for a new shooter. Rather than guarding our permissions like gold mines, maybe more experienced shots should take a lad out once in a while. It's really not that hard, and it keeps our sport strong

 

If things were always done this way, FEOs would have less to fear when the new shooter asks for his first centrefire.

[Mr_Logic 5]

I'm just getting out of my mentoring condition now, but I asked for it that way to start with. I think (and this may annoy some of you) that some kind of mentoring or DSC is important for new FAC holders, but think it should cover all calibres not just Deer rifles. Just think what can happen if you get your backstop judgement wrong with a .243 (the smallest Deer cal.) or even just a .22lr. These things can fly a long way and take some stopping! I think some first hand experience under the watchful eye of an experienced shot is very important for safety. It should be seen as enjoyable. I certainly liked going out with Mike (my mentor) and being told how these things work. The best bit so far was a large Hummel that ran 250 odd yards after a good hit, and it was just getting dark. We spent over an hour searching for it following blood spots on the ground, and eventually I found it stone dead in a wood. I have no idea what I'd have done on my own, so the evening was extremely valuable to me. I hope to one day do the same for a new shooter. Rather than guarding our permissions like gold mines, maybe more experienced shots should take a lad out once in a while. It's really not that hard, and it keeps our sport strong

 

If things were always done this way, FEOs would have less to fear when the new shooter asks for his first centrefire.

You've annoyed me

 

Mentoring is a difficult one, it definitely has its uses BUT sometimes it takes the piss. There are two types for me:

 

* mentoring for deer

* mentoring for shooting generally

 

MENTORING FOR DEER

 

If the person has no experience, a good idea. There is a lot to worry about when shooting a deer, most of it not concerning the shooting. I know very little, hence why I am happy to have a mentoring condition for it. BUT the mentoring is in the processing of the deer, reasons for shooting, etc. NOT the actual shooting because my FEO is quite happy for me to point the same rifle at a fox on my tod.

 

MENTORING FOR SHOOTING GENERALLY

 

This is a really, really sticky one. You say for all new FAC holders. What about someone who's been shooting air rifles for years but now wants a 22LR. You argue they need a mentor, I say crap! 22LR is a piddly little round, and FEO discretion is required. If the person is clearly stupid at their visit, maybe mentoring, but maybe just refuse anyway. otherwise, air rifle experience is fine.

 

Exactly the same point for someone who knows rifle safety from years of shooting at a club. my point is that lots of people ask for an FAC but don't need mentoring. I never had a mentor when I had mine first - I was a member of a rifle club, an avid air gun shooter and the best shot in my school. I was 15. Someone like I was doesn't need a mentor for a rimfire.

 

You say that mentoring keeps our sport strong - does it? If someone had said you need a mentor when I was starting, I might not have been able to bother, I didn't know anyone that shot live quarry. I couldn't accept 243 last time because I needed a mentor then, so I went for 22-250 because I was told I didn't need a mentor for that, which brings me neatly on to...

 

Surely, if someone knows rifle safety, they know rifle safety. 22LR is a piddly round, but you have to take appropriate precautions, as with air rifle, as with shotgun. Those precautions are the same as centrefire - know your backstop, know your round, know the ricochet risk, make appropriate decision.

 

So if I am safe to have a 22-250 without a mentor, why not 243? It's a valid fox calibre and similar in energy to 22-250. The current system is stupid, though the basic idea does have merit.

 

I think my overall point is that mentoring is a judgement call by FEOs, that's fine. But, it needs to be a sensible one, it can't apply to 'all new FAC grants' - that's stupid. It should also be used carefully, because, for the most part, if someone is safe, they're safe, doesn't matter on calibre. Deer are different, but that's why I separated them....

[arcpest 6]

I'm just getting out of my mentoring condition now, but I asked for it that way to start with. I think (and this may annoy some of you) that some kind of mentoring or DSC is important for new FAC holders, but think it should cover all calibres not just Deer rifles. Just think what can happen if you get your backstop judgement wrong with a .243 (the smallest Deer cal.) or even just a .22lr. These things can fly a long way and take some stopping! I think some first hand experience under the watchful eye of an experienced shot is very important for safety. It should be seen as enjoyable. I certainly liked going out with Mike (my mentor) and being told how these things work. The best bit so far was a large Hummel that ran 250 odd yards after a good hit, and it was just getting dark. We spent over an hour searching for it following blood spots on the ground, and eventually I found it stone dead in a wood. I have no idea what I'd have done on my own, so the evening was extremely valuable to me. I hope to one day do the same for a new shooter. Rather than guarding our permissions like gold mines, maybe more experienced shots should take a lad out once in a while. It's really not that hard, and it keeps our sport strong

 

If things were always done this way, FEOs would have less to fear when the new shooter asks for his first centrefire.

You've annoyed me

 

Mentoring is a difficult one, it definitely has its uses BUT sometimes it takes the piss. There are two types for me:

 

* mentoring for deer

* mentoring for shooting generally

 

MENTORING FOR DEER

 

If the person has no experience, a good idea. There is a lot to worry about when shooting a deer, most of it not concerning the shooting. I know very little, hence why I am happy to have a mentoring condition for it. BUT the mentoring is in the processing of the deer, reasons for shooting, etc. NOT the actual shooting because my FEO is quite happy for me to point the same rifle at a fox on my tod.

 

MENTORING FOR SHOOTING GENERALLY

 

This is a really, really sticky one. You say for all new FAC holders. What about someone who's been shooting air rifles for years but now wants a 22LR. You argue they need a mentor, I say crap! 22LR is a piddly little round, and FEO discretion is required. If the person is clearly stupid at their visit, maybe mentoring, but maybe just refuse anyway. otherwise, air rifle experience is fine.

 

Exactly the same point for someone who knows rifle safety from years of shooting at a club. my point is that lots of people ask for an FAC but don't need mentoring. I never had a mentor when I had mine first - I was a member of a rifle club, an avid air gun shooter and the best shot in my school. I was 15. Someone like I was doesn't need a mentor for a rimfire.

 

You say that mentoring keeps our sport strong - does it? If someone had said you need a mentor when I was starting, I might not have been able to bother, I didn't know anyone that shot live quarry. I couldn't accept 243 last time because I needed a mentor then, so I went for 22-250 because I was told I didn't need a mentor for that, which brings me neatly on to...

 

Surely, if someone knows rifle safety, they know rifle safety. 22LR is a piddly round, but you have to take appropriate precautions, as with air rifle, as with shotgun. Those precautions are the same as centrefire - know your backstop, know your round, know the ricochet risk, make appropriate decision.

 

So if I am safe to have a 22-250 without a mentor, why not 243? It's a valid fox calibre and similar in energy to 22-250. The current system is stupid, though the basic idea does have merit.

 

I think my overall point is that mentoring is a judgement call by FEOs, that's fine. But, it needs to be a sensible one, it can't apply to 'all new FAC grants' - that's stupid. It should also be used carefully, because, for the most part, if someone is safe, they're safe, doesn't matter on calibre. Deer are different, but that's why I separated them....

 

 

Well said I totally agree with your comments

[Ratman2 2]

I'm just getting out of my mentoring condition now, but I asked for it that way to start with. I think (and this may annoy some of you) that some kind of mentoring or DSC is important for new FAC holders, but think it should cover all calibres not just Deer rifles. Just think what can happen if you get your backstop judgement wrong with a .243 (the smallest Deer cal.) or even just a .22lr. These things can fly a long way and take some stopping! I think some first hand experience under the watchful eye of an experienced shot is very important for safety. It should be seen as enjoyable. I certainly liked going out with Mike (my mentor) and being told how these things work. The best bit so far was a large Hummel that ran 250 odd yards after a good hit, and it was just getting dark. We spent over an hour searching for it following blood spots on the ground, and eventually I found it stone dead in a wood. I have no idea what I'd have done on my own, so the evening was extremely valuable to me. I hope to one day do the same for a new shooter. Rather than guarding our permissions like gold mines, maybe more experienced shots should take a lad out once in a while. It's really not that hard, and it keeps our sport strong

 

If things were always done this way, FEOs would have less to fear when the new shooter asks for his first centrefire.

You've annoyed me

 

Mentoring is a difficult one, it definitely has its uses BUT sometimes it takes the piss. There are two types for me:

 

* mentoring for deer

* mentoring for shooting generally

 

MENTORING FOR DEER

 

If the person has no experience, a good idea. There is a lot to worry about when shooting a deer, most of it not concerning the shooting. I know very little, hence why I am happy to have a mentoring condition for it. BUT the mentoring is in the processing of the deer, reasons for shooting, etc. NOT the actual shooting because my FEO is quite happy for me to point the same rifle at a fox on my tod.

 

MENTORING FOR SHOOTING GENERALLY

 

This is a really, really sticky one. You say for all new FAC holders. What about someone who's been shooting air rifles for years but now wants a 22LR. You argue they need a mentor, I say crap! 22LR is a piddly little round, and FEO discretion is required. If the person is clearly stupid at their visit, maybe mentoring, but maybe just refuse anyway. otherwise, air rifle experience is fine.

 

Exactly the same point for someone who knows rifle safety from years of shooting at a club. my point is that lots of people ask for an FAC but don't need mentoring. I never had a mentor when I had mine first - I was a member of a rifle club, an avid air gun shooter and the best shot in my school. I was 15. Someone like I was doesn't need a mentor for a rimfire.

 

You say that mentoring keeps our sport strong - does it? If someone had said you need a mentor when I was starting, I might not have been able to bother, I didn't know anyone that shot live quarry. I couldn't accept 243 last time because I needed a mentor then, so I went for 22-250 because I was told I didn't need a mentor for that, which brings me neatly on to...

 

Surely, if someone knows rifle safety, they know rifle safety. 22LR is a piddly round, but you have to take appropriate precautions, as with air rifle, as with shotgun. Those precautions are the same as centrefire - know your backstop, know your round, know the ricochet risk, make appropriate decision.

 

So if I am safe to have a 22-250 without a mentor, why not 243? It's a valid fox calibre and similar in energy to 22-250. The current system is stupid, though the basic idea does have merit.

 

I think my overall point is that mentoring is a judgement call by FEOs, that's fine. But, it needs to be a sensible one, it can't apply to 'all new FAC grants' - that's stupid. It should also be used carefully, because, for the most part, if someone is safe, they're safe, doesn't matter on calibre. Deer are different, but that's why I separated them....

 

 

Well said I totally agree with your comments

 

Same here and I wish the hell I'd written it Just have to add though, the 22LR may be a 'piddly round' but it's a damned good little round.

[Mr_Logic 5]

Thanks both, Ratman, you're dead right, that's why most people that have firearms have one somewhere. It always has been, and probably always will be, the calibre I couldn't be without. There's always a use for it, from bunnies generally to quiet, close-range, built-up-area (i.e. people sensitive to noise, not ricochet-proof ) fox control. And it's cheap and with a semi, great fun!