Deker 3,453 Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) Tom Calm down...I was not laying down a courtroom arguement I was showing a very simple discussion, Swindon and Manchester are immaterial, so are any previous "convictions"... BUT that does just show you why a 15 year old may be fine in one area and not another, why a condition may apply or not, why it may be granted or not.....Just because the law says you can have a SGC at 15 there is absolutely noting automatic about it, that was simply the point I was trying to make when all else were saying "He is bonkers, doesn't know what he is talking about, cant stop you" or words to that effect....There is a phrase that I'm sure you are aware of with regard FAC/SGC....NOT A SUITABLE PERSON....that will take some defining! After all, why do you get a personal visit when commonly they don't even bother to look at the Cabinet! Chill scotlandforever so i was right about me being aloud to shoot by my self and the feo was wrong i thought he was wrong The law states that from the age of 15 people are allowed, however this does not impart any divine right or any automatic grant. I have made the point several times that your FEO may well have been mixed up or mistaken but if he has made a decision you need someone over 21 with you he is 100% within his rights to do this...hopefully this is all a load of nothing but if your SGC does come back with this condition you can always appeal. Remember the law also says you can drive a car at 17 but not everyone that age manages it! Whatever anyone may tell you please trust me when I say, it will not do you any favours to make an enemy out of your FEO. I am not suggesting for one minute you should lick his a**e,...... talk, discuss, debate with him, ask him questions by all means, most are pretty normal reasonable people but try and stay on the right side of him. Despite what the signature may say on your FAC/SGC the reality is the FEO's report will prevail in the vast majority of cases. The Chief Constable only gets involved when the s**t hit the fan! Cheers Edited February 9, 2008 by Deker Quote Link to post
Foxgun Tom 75 Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 (edited) I am extremely calm It is not a courtroom argument your right!! but it is a legal one that some members of the forum may face?? There are, as you are probably aware precidents allready set in law re: young people being granted a SGC. Any FEO is visiting you is a representative of the Chief Constable of that area, you do not have to be subserviant to someone who's is making enquiries on behalf of any Chief Constable especially! if that FEO is not up to date on current legislation Both myself and scotlandforever live in the same police region and both of us have had visits from two different FEO's, both FEO's showed a distinct lack of knowledge?? that lack of knowledge could be detrimental to some applicants?? I have sat in on number of interviews re: renewals and applications and have been astounded at some firearms depts ineptitude at basic principle points of law re: firearms Legislation. Remember on appeal its the police who have to define "Not a suitable person" not the applicant scotlandforever does have legal right not! divine to hold a sgc the same as any 15 year old in his posistion! unless there are legal reasons subject to the firearms act which prevent him the grant of a certificate Deker say's "Despite what the signature may say on your FAC/SGC the reality is the FEO's report will prevail in the vast majority of cases. The Chief Constable only gets involved when the s**t hit the fan!" Can you tell me where or what this information is based on and is there details regarding this point detailed somewhere No-one should make an enemy of anyone and that includes a FEO just remember he is there on behalf of some-one else he is definately not the desicion maker despite what your being told!! No! Chief Constable is going to allow an appeal to go to court if that police authority is shown to be enforcing guidelines rather than the law? when its the law thats the requirement nothing else prevails Tom Edited February 9, 2008 by Foxgun Tom Quote Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 I am extremely calm It is not a courtroom argument your right!! but it is a legal one that some members of the forum may face?? There are, as you are probably aware precidents allready set in law re: young people being granted a SGC. Any FEO is visiting you is a representative of the Chief Constable of that area, you do not have to be subserviant to someone who's is making enquiries on behalf of any Chief Constable especially! if that FEO is not up to date on current legislation Both myself and scotlandforever live in the same police region and both of us have had visits from two different FEO's, both FEO's showed a distinct lack of knowledge?? that lack of knowledge could be detrimental to some applicants?? I have sat in on number of interviews re: renewals and applications and have been astounded at some firearms depts ineptitude at basic principle points of law re: firearms Legislation. Remember on appeal its the police who have to define "Not a suitable person" not the applicant scotlandforever does have legal right not! divine to hold a sgc the same as any 15 year old in his posistion! unless there are legal reasons subject to the firearms act which prevent him the grant of a certificate Deker say's "Despite what the signature may say on your FAC/SGC the reality is the FEO's report will prevail in the vast majority of cases. The Chief Constable only gets involved when the s**t hit the fan!" Can you tell me where or what this information is based on and is there details regarding this point detailed somewhere No-one should make an enemy of anyone and that includes a FEO just remember he is there on behalf of some-one else he is definately not the desicion maker despite what your being told!! No! Chief Constable is going to allow an appeal to go to court if that police authority is shown to be enforcing guidelines rather than the law? when its the law thats the requirement nothing else prevails Tom Tom Sorry mate but you are beginning to bore me, you really are getting very wound up over this! I have NEVER suggested you need to, or ought to be subservient, neither have I suggested the FEO is all knowing...I have actually stated he may well have made a mistake, Ive also said talk, discuss etc with him. I have also specifically tried to stay away from any direct comment on this individual situation. BUT lets just assume, for example, at the home visit a 15 year old made a remark which the FEO considered immature or agressive. He is perfectly entitled to add a condition on the SGC about being accompanied and the odds are very strong it will happen. Decisions upon any appeal will potentially be resolved in court...so...how much legal debate/arguement do you want here....? Your FEO is a VERY VERY important person in your FAC/SGC application, and has considerable clout in relation to it's issue but will hide behind those senior when the crunch comes. Many background checks are usually done before your FEO visits. He will visit you in the knowledge of these checks and their outcome wether it be good or bad, there will be times when he visits having been advised there may be some issues, likewise he will visit at times when everything will seem in order. What he writes or recommends in his visit report will then dramatically influence the outcome of you application! NO, he is NOT the decision maker, but the simple fact is that the decision maker will almost always do what the FEO recomends. On the whole the decision maker is the Manager of the Firearms Licencing Department, although he will only tend to get directly involved in problem issues. FACT! "Despite what the signature may say on your FAC/SGC the reality is the FEO's report will prevail in the vast majority of cases. The Chief Constable only gets involved when the s**t hit the fan!" Can you tell me where or what this information is based on and is there details regarding this point detailed somewhere Come on Tom...I had you down for a sensible bloke, perhaps you would like to show me all the work the Chief Constable does reading/checking/deciding you application before "he" signs it! Take a Bigger Chill Pill Deker Quote Link to post
Foxgun Tom 75 Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Despite what the signature may say on your FAC/SGC the reality is the FEO's report will prevail in the vast majority of cases. The Chief Constable only gets involved when the s**t hit the fan! You made the comment above can you back it up as factually correct?? Manager of the Firearms Licencing Department? I'll check this out with Strathclyde Police and see if anyone holds such an exalted posistion! Tom Ps: I notice you miss out my most relevant points in your reply Quote Link to post
Deker 3,453 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Despite what the signature may say on your FAC/SGC the reality is the FEO's report will prevail in the vast majority of cases. The Chief Constable only gets involved when the s**t hit the fan! You made the comment above can you back it up as factually correct?? Can you show I'm wrong? Manager of the Firearms Licencing Department? I'll check this out with Strathclyde Police and see if anyone holds such an exalted posistion! Probably not because as you say they are all idiots up there, do you want one of mine, we have 2 in my region? Tom Ps: I notice you miss out my most relevant points in your reply Tom...I still don't get your problem...has your misses put you on rations or something" CHILL OUT Tom..........YOU WIN, I am losing the will to live ..... the fact I have been directly involved with over 100 individuals FAC applications (only about 8 or 10 SGC) involving, I think now 8 different Firearms Regions, personally know/known around 26 different FEO's and the 2 MANAGERS of my own Firearms Region and 2 Chief Constables, means that I am not qualified to make any comment and know nothing of how they all work. Sorry I got involved, please ignore all the ruddish I have spouted out.....just listen to Tom everyone, he'll tell you how to put your FEO in their place! Quote Link to post
scotlandforever 0 Posted February 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 (edited) THE TWO OF USE JUST CHILL OUT it will end in tears this is better than jeremy kyle Edited February 10, 2008 by scotlandforever Quote Link to post
Foxgun Tom 75 Posted February 10, 2008 Report Share Posted February 10, 2008 Jason you litttle shit you started it But your right The only difference is myself and Deker disagree about the role of FEO's and how much clout they have and I'm certainly not gonna fall out with Deker over this!! We'll just a agree to disagree Just a couple of points and thats the end of the matter!!! Deker, I can't prove your wrong unless you have evidence your right and at no time did I say all FEO's are Idiots up here?? For me the matter is closed!! Myself and SAC's will wait and see how our junior member gets on and take it from there Tom Ps: Jason the only reason you might get rejected is your bad use of the written word, quote "THE TWO OF USE JUST CHILL OUT" end quote! should have read "THE TWO OF YOU JUST CHILL OUT" ________________________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________ THE TWO OF USE JUST CHILL OUT it will end in tears this is better than jeremy kyle Quote Link to post
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