GameBirdMeg 21 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I really want to go out this weekend and was looking about for some terrier shows. there are 3 in Sussex this Sunday (2hours from me). I have two pups and one bitch to take and I dont really fancy going all the way down there to find that they aren't allowing docked pups. 1st one I called up i spoke to someone who didn't have a clue who put me on to the hunt kennels but he hadn't heard of the law but said come down as they'll all be allowed in. 2nd one I spoke to said they are stating NO docked pups so the show doesn't get into trouble but I can enter if the judge lets me. 3rd Never heard of the law either! What would you do? It's fair way to go to find I can only take one of the three dogs in! Need a brick wall now!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeterrier 4 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 its not the shows fault realy,they are stuck between a rock and a hard place and often do not undrstand the terrier pup situation.you are the one with a decision to make either take the chance on the one that you were going to go to or choose one that is putting pups on. remember shows who are staying defient against the rediculous law are not going to advertise and bleat on about there intentions on public forums. also if people didnt keep supporting shows that dont put on terrier pup classes,they would be forced to put pups on or have no show. personally i would drive past a show that was not putting pups on to one one that was having pups on. sticking together against these stupid laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GameBirdMeg 21 Posted June 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 its not the shows fault realy,they are stuck between a rock and a hard place and often do not undrstand the terrier pup situation.you are the one with a decision to make either take the chance on the one that you were going to go to or choose one that is putting pups on. remember shows who are staying defient against the rediculous law are not going to advertise and bleat on about there intentions on public forums. also if people didnt keep supporting shows that dont put on terrier pup classes,they would be forced to put pups on or have no show. personally i would drive past a show that was not putting pups on to one one that was having pups on. sticking together against these stupid laws. I completely agree with you I just can't beleive that people organising these shows haven't heard of the law. Therefore don't know the ways to work round it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeterrier 4 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 yeah some of them need a wake up call Quote Link to post Share on other sites
farlap 19 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 yeah some of them need a wake up call its simple. if they charge an entrance fee to the show (dog show) to the public then dogs docked post-ban, cannot show there. If they simply ask for a voluntary donation then theres no problem Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LAKELANDY 29 Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 I really want to go out this weekend and was looking about for some terrier shows. there are 3 in Sussex this Sunday (2hours from me). I have two pups and one bitch to take and I dont really fancy going all the way down there to find that they aren't allowing docked pups. 1st one I called up i spoke to someone who didn't have a clue who put me on to the hunt kennels but he hadn't heard of the law but said come down as they'll all be allowed in. 2nd one I spoke to said they are stating NO docked pups so the show doesn't get into trouble but I can enter if the judge lets me. 3rd Never heard of the law either! What would you do? It's fair way to go to find I can only take one of the three dogs in! Need a brick wall now!!! Middlesex town and country show have a terrier show both days with quaifyers for all the big terriers shows shold have no problem there?? 20/21 june see show website for show classes. not to far from Essex. atb lakelandy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lucy 0 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I really want to go out this weekend and was looking about for some terrier shows. there are 3 in Sussex this Sunday (2hours from me). I have two pups and one bitch to take and I dont really fancy going all the way down there to find that they aren't allowing docked pups. 1st one I called up i spoke to someone who didn't have a clue who put me on to the hunt kennels but he hadn't heard of the law but said come down as they'll all be allowed in. 2nd one I spoke to said they are stating NO docked pups so the show doesn't get into trouble but I can enter if the judge lets me. 3rd Never heard of the law either! What would you do? It's fair way to go to find I can only take one of the three dogs in! Need a brick wall now!!! Well... As someone who organises a show, here's what I did/do... When the law came out, I got completely hacked off with it... yet another way for Westminster to tell us what to do. But, wanting to be a law abiding citizen, and not wanting to land myself in hot water, I asked the advice of our local bobby, since he would be the one with a responsibility to investigate should a complaint be made. The long and short of it is that the police obviously have enough to do without going to shows looking for tails and establishing the ages of dogs. However, they have a responsibility to investigate a crime when a crime is alleged to have been committed. I reckon that they would rather up revenue by standing at the side of road with a speed gun than up crime fugures using this ridiculous law. He did say that donations (yes even voluntary ones) would be against the law, so the best advice is don't charge the gate (we don't) and make up the money elsewhere... He also explained that is is the organisers, not the exhibitors or the judge, who would be arrested/investigated - so beware organisers - ignorance is no defence and while you think you are providing people with a good day out, possibly raising money for charity and promoting activities of working dogs, you could waste your time answering stupid questions about dogs' tails, while the police have better things to do. Because of this, we decided not to charge the gate last year, or this year. So, taking GameBirdMeg's, examples, here are my opinions... With regard to the first example: Ignorance is no defence. The organisers could get into trouble. With regard to the second example: The organisers (not you or the judge) could get into trouble if the judge let a dog docked after the 6th April 2007 be exhibited. With regard to your third example: Again, ignorance is no defence. In short, you can take your dogs docked after 6th April 2007 to s show and exhibit them - you won't get into trouble for showing them - the organisers will. My concern for you however is that if you win and your photos are published in the press, it draws attention to the authorities of both you and the organisers. Stupid though I think the law is, I don't want to be the one to openly flout the law, so we don't charge entrance. Come along to our show - at this stage, we're not flouting the law and support the showing of docked working dogs. As a final aside, a previous judge (pre 2007) didn't place a patterdale with a tail. The owner went and asked his opinion on her bitch as she was considering breeding from her. The judge said that she was a lovely bitch, but it was a working dog show, so he wouldn't place her. He said she was worth breeding from, but make sure you dock them. Right, I'm off now for a lie-down! Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GameBirdMeg 21 Posted June 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 I really want to go out this weekend and was looking about for some terrier shows. there are 3 in Sussex this Sunday (2hours from me). I have two pups and one bitch to take and I dont really fancy going all the way down there to find that they aren't allowing docked pups. 1st one I called up i spoke to someone who didn't have a clue who put me on to the hunt kennels but he hadn't heard of the law but said come down as they'll all be allowed in. 2nd one I spoke to said they are stating NO docked pups so the show doesn't get into trouble but I can enter if the judge lets me. 3rd Never heard of the law either! What would you do? It's fair way to go to find I can only take one of the three dogs in! Need a brick wall now!!! Well... As someone who organises a show, here's what I did/do... When the law came out, I got completely hacked off with it... yet another way for Westminster to tell us what to do. But, wanting to be a law abiding citizen, and not wanting to land myself in hot water, I asked the advice of our local bobby, since he would be the one with a responsibility to investigate should a complaint be made. The long and short of it is that the police obviously have enough to do without going to shows looking for tails and establishing the ages of dogs. However, they have a responsibility to investigate a crime when a crime is alleged to have been committed. I reckon that they would rather up revenue by standing at the side of road with a speed gun than up crime fugures using this ridiculous law. He did say that donations (yes even voluntary ones) would be against the law, so the best advice is don't charge the gate (we don't) and make up the money elsewhere... He also explained that is is the organisers, not the exhibitors or the judge, who would be arrested/investigated - so beware organisers - ignorance is no defence and while you think you are providing people with a good day out, possibly raising money for charity and promoting activities of working dogs, you could waste your time answering stupid questions about dogs' tails, while the police have better things to do. Because of this, we decided not to charge the gate last year, or this year. So, taking GameBirdMeg's, examples, here are my opinions... With regard to the first example: Ignorance is no defence. The organisers could get into trouble. With regard to the second example: The organisers (not you or the judge) could get into trouble if the judge let a dog docked after the 6th April 2007 be exhibited. With regard to your third example: Again, ignorance is no defence. In short, you can take your dogs docked after 6th April 2007 to s show and exhibit them - you won't get into trouble for showing them - the organisers will. My concern for you however is that if you win and your photos are published in the press, it draws attention to the authorities of both you and the organisers. Stupid though I think the law is, I don't want to be the one to openly flout the law, so we don't charge entrance. Come along to our show - at this stage, we're not flouting the law and support the showing of docked working dogs. As a final aside, a previous judge (pre 2007) didn't place a patterdale with a tail. The owner went and asked his opinion on her bitch as she was considering breeding from her. The judge said that she was a lovely bitch, but it was a working dog show, so he wouldn't place her. He said she was worth breeding from, but make sure you dock them. Right, I'm off now for a lie-down! Cheers Very interesting Lucy! Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Toka 10 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Hi, just checked the legislation and it does say the person showing the docked dog also commits an offence [not only the organisers]!!!!! one to watch out for!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lucy 0 Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Hi, just checked the legislation and it does say the person showing the docked dog also commits an offence [not only the organisers]!!!!! one to watch out for!!! Is that because it's a different act under which the exhibitor is committing the offence, or is it the same act? Best advice is, don't do it I guess! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Toka 10 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Here's the ifon picked straight from the Act......... 6 Docking of dogs' tails (1) A person commits an offence if— (a) he removes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment; ( he causes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail to be removed by another person, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment. (2) A person commits an offence if— (a) he is responsible for a dog, ( another person removes the whole or any part of the dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment, and © he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening. (3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if the dog is a certified working dog that is not more than 5 days old. (4) For the purposes of subsection (3), a dog is a certified working dog if a veterinary surgeon has certified, in accordance with regulations made by the appropriate national authority, that the first and second conditions mentioned below are met. (5) The first condition referred to in subsection (4) is that there has been produced to the veterinary surgeon such evidence as the appropriate national authority may by regulations require for the purpose of showing that the dog is likely to be used for work in connection with— (a) law enforcement, ( activities of Her Majesty’s armed forces, © emergency rescue, (d) lawful pest control, or (e) the lawful shooting of animals. (6) The second condition referred to in subsection (4) is that the dog is of a type specified for the purposes of this subsection by regulations made by the appropriate national authority. (7) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (1) or (2) to show that he reasonably believed that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (3) applies. ( A person commits an offence if— (a) he owns a subsection (3) dog, and ( fails to take reasonable steps to secure that, before the dog is 3 months old, it is identified as a subsection (3) dog in accordance with regulations made by the appropriate national authority. (9) A person commits an offence if— (a) he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee, (the dog’s tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and © removal took place on or after the commencement day. (10) Where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability, subsection (9) does not apply if the dog is a subsection (3) dog. (11) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (9) to show that he reasonably believed— (a) that the event was not one to which members of the public were admitted on payment of an entrance fee, ( that the removal took place before the commencement day, or © that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (10) applies. (12) A person commits an offence if he knowingly gives false information to a veterinary surgeon in connection with the giving of a certificate for the purposes of this section. (13) The appropriate national authority may by regulations make provision about the functions of inspectors in relation to— (a) certificates for the purposes of this section, and ( the identification of dogs as subsection (3) dogs. (14) Power to make regulations under this section includes power— (a) to make different provision for different cases, and ( to make incidental, supplementary, consequential or transitional provision or savings. (15) Before making regulations under this section, the appropriate national authority shall consult such persons appearing to the authority to represent any interests concerned as the authority considers appropriate. (16) In this section— * “commencement day†means the day on which this section comes into force; * “subsection (3) dog†means a dog whose tail has, on or after the commencement day, been wholly or partly removed without contravening subsection (1), because of the application of subsection (3). hope this makes sense to all..... What I am wondering is if someone bought a pup over 12 weeks old who's tail was docked illegally what would happen to them/the dog. I know a family who bought a pet terrier and it turns out that they should have received a certificate but nothing came with it. From what I have found only the owner at the time docking should have taken place commits an offence, not the current owners who were unaware of the new law. [ignorance aint a defence though but in all the legislation I have found none mentions that scenario???] Can anyone comment.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lucy 0 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Here's the ifon picked straight from the Act......... 6 Docking of dogs' tails (1) A person commits an offence if— (a) he removes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment; ( he causes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail to be removed by another person, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment. (2) A person commits an offence if— (a) he is responsible for a dog, ( another person removes the whole or any part of the dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment, and © he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening. (3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if the dog is a certified working dog that is not more than 5 days old. (4) For the purposes of subsection (3), a dog is a certified working dog if a veterinary surgeon has certified, in accordance with regulations made by the appropriate national authority, that the first and second conditions mentioned below are met. (5) The first condition referred to in subsection (4) is that there has been produced to the veterinary surgeon such evidence as the appropriate national authority may by regulations require for the purpose of showing that the dog is likely to be used for work in connection with— (a) law enforcement, ( activities of Her Majesty’s armed forces, © emergency rescue, (d) lawful pest control, or (e) the lawful shooting of animals. (6) The second condition referred to in subsection (4) is that the dog is of a type specified for the purposes of this subsection by regulations made by the appropriate national authority. (7) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (1) or (2) to show that he reasonably believed that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (3) applies. ( A person commits an offence if— (a) he owns a subsection (3) dog, and ( fails to take reasonable steps to secure that, before the dog is 3 months old, it is identified as a subsection (3) dog in accordance with regulations made by the appropriate national authority. (9) A person commits an offence if— (a) he shows a dog at an event to which members of the public are admitted on payment of a fee, (the dog’s tail has been wholly or partly removed (in England and Wales or elsewhere), and © removal took place on or after the commencement day. (10) Where a dog is shown only for the purpose of demonstrating its working ability, subsection (9) does not apply if the dog is a subsection (3) dog. (11) It is a defence for a person accused of an offence under subsection (9) to show that he reasonably believed— (a) that the event was not one to which members of the public were admitted on payment of an entrance fee, ( that the removal took place before the commencement day, or © that the dog was one in relation to which subsection (10) applies. (12) A person commits an offence if he knowingly gives false information to a veterinary surgeon in connection with the giving of a certificate for the purposes of this section. (13) The appropriate national authority may by regulations make provision about the functions of inspectors in relation to— (a) certificates for the purposes of this section, and ( the identification of dogs as subsection (3) dogs. (14) Power to make regulations under this section includes power— (a) to make different provision for different cases, and ( to make incidental, supplementary, consequential or transitional provision or savings. (15) Before making regulations under this section, the appropriate national authority shall consult such persons appearing to the authority to represent any interests concerned as the authority considers appropriate. (16) In this section— * “commencement day†means the day on which this section comes into force; * “subsection (3) dog†means a dog whose tail has, on or after the commencement day, been wholly or partly removed without contravening subsection (1), because of the application of subsection (3). hope this makes sense to all..... What I am wondering is if someone bought a pup over 12 weeks old who's tail was docked illegally what would happen to them/the dog. I know a family who bought a pet terrier and it turns out that they should have received a certificate but nothing came with it. From what I have found only the owner at the time docking should have taken place commits an offence, not the current owners who were unaware of the new law. [ignorance aint a defence though but in all the legislation I have found none mentions that scenario???] Can anyone comment.... Guess the police could use alot of their manpower trying to find out exactly who docked the dog!! Ridiculous ain't it - it's hard enough trying to find out who's driving a speeding car when the driver says it wasn't them. How on earth do they think they're going to find out who docked the dog!! I guess the best advice for organisers is, don't charge the gate and for owners of docked dogs make sure you don't win at any shows (regardless of whether gate is charged) in case you draw attention to your dogs tail and have to explain where it is!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,561 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Fecking great bit of law if you ask me.............at least it will be easier to recognise the out and out showponys. Stop passing there fanny warmers off as proper terriers.........lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GameBirdMeg 21 Posted June 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 (edited) Fecking great bit of law if you ask me.............at least it will be easier to recognise the out and out showponys.Stop passing there fanny warmers off as proper terriers.........lol Wilf, are you getting jealuos again cos you haven't got one?? lol Edited June 23, 2009 by GameBirdMeg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 44,561 Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 Wilf, are you getting jealuos again cos you haven't got one?? lol Yep Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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