JABS

[Guest samstheman]

What is everyone's thoughts on vaccinating dogs without the aid of a vet? Is it possible to purchase the aforementioned legally, and if it is, does anyone have contact details? Any help would be greatly appreciated

With thanks

Mari

[Guest oldskool]

vet stings me £30

[Guest samstheman]

vet stings me £30

 

I know mate, stuff probably only costs a couple of quid, I inject humans every day as a nurse (but not with canine vacs!) so a dog would be no problem. No wonder vets drive around in posh vehicles with personalised number plates (e.g., Vet 001 etc), got 4 to do so will cost me a pretty penny to take to the dog-doc

[Guest MOLLY]

I 'think' they are a licienced drug, therefore illegal to sell or buy them if you are not a registered vet.

MOLL.

[Guest oldskool]

the only problem with buying them off someone is how do you know your not getting a jab of water?? or if they've been kept in the wrong conditions etc then i think they are supposed to lose their potency??

[Guest samstheman]

I 'think' they are a licienced drug, therefore illegal to sell or buy them if you are not a registered vet.

MOLL.

 

Cheers Moll, just have to take to the vets then won't I?!

P.S PM's welcome..........

[Guest samstheman]

.. come on it's only once in the dog's lifetime it need's doing.. so do it by the book..

Millet

 

Is this right? So what the vet says about annual boosters etc is a load of bull? How do we know the vet isn't injecting water or stuff that isn't properly stored?

Thanks for your post anyway

[blackpack 70]

What's 30/40 or even fifty quid when it come's to getting your dog's jabbed properly.. it only take's one bad batch that's not been kept refridgerated properly and you can say goodbye to your pup through your diy stuff.. these day's a pup will cost a few quid so dont you think it's easier and wiser just to put your hand in your pocket and shell out.. come on it's only once in the dog's lifetime it need's doing.. so do it by the book..

Millet

 

 

if its only one dog fair enough but as read they have got 4 to do, all huntsman with hounds dont take their hounds to vets do they!!!!

[Guest MOLLY]

Is this right? So what the vet says about annual boosters etc is a load of bull?

Look it up on the net....loads of info regarding boosters. Mine are done 3yrly, and had them tested for immunity at the beginning of this year.

 

Dear Editor

 

We, the undersigned, would like to bring to your attention our concerns in the light of recent new evidence regarding vaccination protocol.

 

The American Veterinary Medical Association Committee report this year states that 'the one year revaccination recommendation frequently found on many vaccination labels is based on historical precedent, not scientific

data'.

In JAVMA in 1995, Smith notes that 'there is evidence that some vaccines provide immunity beyond one year. In fact, according to research there is no proof that many of the yearly vaccinations are necessary and that protection in many instances may be life long'; also, 'Vaccination is a

potent medical procedure with both benefits and risks for the patient';

further that, 'Revaccination of patients with sufficient immunity does not add measurably to their disease resistance, and may increase their risk of adverse post-vaccination events.'

 

Finally, he states that: 'Adverse events may be associated with the antigen, adjuvant, carrier, preservative or combination thereof. Possible adverse events include failure to immunise, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression,

autoimmune disorders, transient infections and/or long-term infected carrier states.'

 

The report of the American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Taskforce in JAAHA (39 March/April 2003) is also interesting reading:

'Current knowledgte supports the statement that no vaccine is always safe, no vaccine is always protective and no vaccine is always indicated';

'Misunderstanding, misinformation and the conservative nature of our profession have largely slowed adoption of protocols advocating decreased frequency of vaccination'; 'Immunological memory provides durations of immunity for core infectious diseases that far exceed the traditional

recommendations for annual vaccination. This is supported by a growing body of veterinary information as well as well-developed epidemiological vigilance in human medicine that indicates immunity induced by vaccination

is extremely long lasting and, in .most cases, lifelong.'

 

Further, the evidence shows that the duration of immunity for rabies vaccine, canine distemper vaccine, canine parvovirus vaccine, feline panleukopaenia vaccine, feline rhinotracheitis and feline calicivurus have all been demonstrated to be a minimum of seven years, by serology for rabies and challenge studies for all others.

 

The veterinary surgeons below fully accept that no single achievement has had greater impact on the lives and well-being of our patients, our clients and our ability to prevent infectious diseases than the developments in

annual vaccines. We, however, fully support the recommendations and guidelines of the American Animal Hospitals Association Taskforce, to reduce vaccine protocols for dogs and cats such that booster vaccinations are only given every three years, and only for core vaccines unless otherwise scientifically justified.

 

We further suggest that the evidence currently available will soon lead to the following facts being accepted:

 

* The immune systems of dogs and cats mature fully at six months and any modified live virus (MLV) vaccine given after that age produces immunity that is good for the life of that pet.

 

* If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralise the antigens from the subsequent so there is little or no effect; the pet is not 'boosted', nor are more memory cells induced.

 

* Not only are annual boosters for canine parvovirus and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated haemolytic anaemia.

 

* There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of MLV vaccines.

 

* Puppies and kittens receive antibodies through their mothers' milk. This natural protection can last eight to 14 weeks.

 

* Puppies and kittens should NOT be vaccinated at less than eight weeks. Maternal immunity will neutralise the vaccine and little protection will be produced.

 

* Vaccination at six weeks will, however, DELAY the timing of the first effective vaccine.

 

* Vaccines given two weeks apart SUPPRESS rather than stimulate the immune system.

 

 

This would give possible new guidelines as follows:

 

1. A series of vaccinations is given starting at eight weeks of age (or preferably later) and given three to four weeks apart, up to 16 weeks of age.

 

2. One further booster is given sometime after six months of age and will then provide life-long immunity.

 

In light of data now available showing the needless use and potential harm of annual vaccination, we call on our profession to cease the policy of annual vaccination.

 

Can we wonder that clients are losing faith in vaccination and researching the issue themselves? We think they are right to do so. Politics, tradition or the economic well-being of veterinary surgeons and pharmaceutical companies should not be a factor in making medical decisions.

 

It is accepted that the annual examination of a pet is advisable. We undervalue ourselves, however, if we hang this essential service on the back of vaccination and will ultimately suffer the consequences. Do we need to wait until we see actions against vets, such as those launched in the state of Texas by Dr Robert Rogers? He asserts that the present practice of marketing vaccinations for companion animals constitutes fraud by misrepresentation, fraud by silence and theft by deception.

The oath we take as newly-qualified veterinary surgeons is 'to help, or at least do no harm'. We wish to maintain our position within society, and be deserving of the trust placed in us as a profession. It is therefore our contention that those who continue to give annual vaccinations in the

light of new evidence may well be acting contrary to the wefare of the animals committed to their care.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Richard Allport, BVetMed, MRCVS

Sue Armstrong, MA BVetMed, MRCVS

Mark Carpenter, BVetMed, MRCVS

Sarah Fox-Chapman, MS, DVM, MRCVS

Nichola Cornish, BVetMed, MRCVS

Tim Couzens, BVetMed, MRCVS

Chris Day, MA, VetMB, MRCVS

Claire Davies, BVSc, MRCVS

Mark Elliott, BVSc, MRCVS

Peter Gregory, BVSc, MRCVS

Lise Hansen, DVM, MRCVS

John Hoare, BVSc, MRCVS

Graham Hines, BVSc, MRCVS

Megan Kearney, BVSc, MRCVS

Mich*ll e L'oste Brown, BVetMed, MRCVS

Suzi McIntyre, BVSc, MRCVS

Siobhan Menzies, BVM&S, MRCVS

Nazrene Moosa, BVSc, MRCVS

Mike Nolan, BVSc, MRCVS

Ilse Pedler, MA, VetMB, BSc, MRCVS

John Saxton, BVetMed, MRCVS

Cheryl Sears, MVB, MRCVS

Jane Seymour, BVSc, MRCVS

Christine Shields, BVSc, MRCVS

Suzannah Stacey, BVSc, MRCVS

Phillip Stimpson, MA, VetMB, MRCVS

Nick Thompson, BSc, BVM&S, MRCVS

Lyn Thompson, BVSc, MRCVS

Wendy Vere, VetMB, MA, MRCVS

Anuska Viljoen, BVSc, MRCVS, and

Wendy Vink, BVSc, MRCVS

 

blackpack Posted Today, 10:49 PM if its only one dog fair enough but as read they have got 4 to do

No offence intended and not directed at anyone, but it never fails to amaze me..... if people cannot afford the basic health care required for 4 dogs or any amount, then why do they have that many?

 

Plus, have you all forgotten Ginger French so soon?

MOLL.

[blackpack 70]

Is this right? So what the vet says about annual boosters etc is a load of bull?

Look it up on the net....loads of info regarding boosters. Mine are done 3yrly, and had them tested for immunity at the beginning of this year.

 

Dear Editor

 

We, the undersigned, would like to bring to your attention our concerns in the light of recent new evidence regarding vaccination protocol.

 

The American Veterinary Medical Association Committee report this year states that 'the one year revaccination recommendation frequently found on many vaccination labels is based on historical precedent, not scientific

data'.

In JAVMA in 1995, Smith notes that 'there is evidence that some vaccines provide immunity beyond one year. In fact, according to research there is no proof that many of the yearly vaccinations are necessary and that protection in many instances may be life long'; also, 'Vaccination is a

potent medical procedure with both benefits and risks for the patient';

further that, 'Revaccination of patients with sufficient immunity does not add measurably to their disease resistance, and may increase their risk of adverse post-vaccination events.'

 

Finally, he states that: 'Adverse events may be associated with the antigen, adjuvant, carrier, preservative or combination thereof. Possible adverse events include failure to immunise, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression,

autoimmune disorders, transient infections and/or long-term infected carrier states.'

 

The report of the American Animal Hospital Association Canine Vaccine Taskforce in JAAHA (39 March/April 2003) is also interesting reading:

'Current knowledgte supports the statement that no vaccine is always safe, no vaccine is always protective and no vaccine is always indicated';

'Misunderstanding, misinformation and the conservative nature of our profession have largely slowed adoption of protocols advocating decreased frequency of vaccination'; 'Immunological memory provides durations of immunity for core infectious diseases that far exceed the traditional

recommendations for annual vaccination. This is supported by a growing body of veterinary information as well as well-developed epidemiological vigilance in human medicine that indicates immunity induced by vaccination

is extremely long lasting and, in .most cases, lifelong.'

 

Further, the evidence shows that the duration of immunity for rabies vaccine, canine distemper vaccine, canine parvovirus vaccine, feline panleukopaenia vaccine, feline rhinotracheitis and feline calicivurus have all been demonstrated to be a minimum of seven years, by serology for rabies and challenge studies for all others.

 

The veterinary surgeons below fully accept that no single achievement has had greater impact on the lives and well-being of our patients, our clients and our ability to prevent infectious diseases than the developments in

annual vaccines. We, however, fully support the recommendations and guidelines of the American Animal Hospitals Association Taskforce, to reduce vaccine protocols for dogs and cats such that booster vaccinations are only given every three years, and only for core vaccines unless otherwise scientifically justified.

 

We further suggest that the evidence currently available will soon lead to the following facts being accepted:

 

* The immune systems of dogs and cats mature fully at six months and any modified live virus (MLV) vaccine given after that age produces immunity that is good for the life of that pet.

 

* If another MLV vaccine is given a year later, the antibodies from the first vaccine neutralise the antigens from the subsequent so there is little or no effect; the pet is not 'boosted', nor are more memory cells induced.

 

* Not only are annual boosters for canine parvovirus and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to potential risks of allergic reactions and immune-mediated haemolytic anaemia.

 

* There is no scientific documentation to back up label claims for annual administration of MLV vaccines.

 

* Puppies and kittens receive antibodies through their mothers' milk. This natural protection can last eight to 14 weeks.

 

* Puppies and kittens should NOT be vaccinated at less than eight weeks. Maternal immunity will neutralise the vaccine and little protection will be produced.

 

* Vaccination at six weeks will, however, DELAY the timing of the first effective vaccine.

 

* Vaccines given two weeks apart SUPPRESS rather than stimulate the immune system.

 

 

This would give possible new guidelines as follows:

 

1. A series of vaccinations is given starting at eight weeks of age (or preferably later) and given three to four weeks apart, up to 16 weeks of age.

 

2. One further booster is given sometime after six months of age and will then provide life-long immunity.

 

In light of data now available showing the needless use and potential harm of annual vaccination, we call on our profession to cease the policy of annual vaccination.

 

Can we wonder that clients are losing faith in vaccination and researching the issue themselves? We think they are right to do so. Politics, tradition or the economic well-being of veterinary surgeons and pharmaceutical companies should not be a factor in making medical decisions.

 

It is accepted that the annual examination of a pet is advisable. We undervalue ourselves, however, if we hang this essential service on the back of vaccination and will ultimately suffer the consequences. Do we need to wait until we see actions against vets, such as those launched in the state of Texas by Dr Robert Rogers? He asserts that the present practice of marketing vaccinations for companion animals constitutes fraud by misrepresentation, fraud by silence and theft by deception.

The oath we take as newly-qualified veterinary surgeons is 'to help, or at least do no harm'. We wish to maintain our position within society, and be deserving of the trust placed in us as a profession. It is therefore our contention that those who continue to give annual vaccinations in the

light of new evidence may well be acting contrary to the wefare of the animals committed to their care.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Richard Allport, BVetMed, MRCVS

Sue Armstrong, MA BVetMed, MRCVS

Mark Carpenter, BVetMed, MRCVS

Sarah Fox-Chapman, MS, DVM, MRCVS

Nichola Cornish, BVetMed, MRCVS

Tim Couzens, BVetMed, MRCVS

Chris Day, MA, VetMB, MRCVS

Claire Davies, BVSc, MRCVS

Mark Elliott, BVSc, MRCVS

Peter Gregory, BVSc, MRCVS

Lise Hansen, DVM, MRCVS

John Hoare, BVSc, MRCVS

Graham Hines, BVSc, MRCVS

Megan Kearney, BVSc, MRCVS

Mich*ll e L'oste Brown, BVetMed, MRCVS

Suzi McIntyre, BVSc, MRCVS

Siobhan Menzies, BVM&S, MRCVS

Nazrene Moosa, BVSc, MRCVS

Mike Nolan, BVSc, MRCVS

Ilse Pedler, MA, VetMB, BSc, MRCVS

John Saxton, BVetMed, MRCVS

Cheryl Sears, MVB, MRCVS

Jane Seymour, BVSc, MRCVS

Christine Shields, BVSc, MRCVS

Suzannah Stacey, BVSc, MRCVS

Phillip Stimpson, MA, VetMB, MRCVS

Nick Thompson, BSc, BVM&S, MRCVS

Lyn Thompson, BVSc, MRCVS

Wendy Vere, VetMB, MA, MRCVS

Anuska Viljoen, BVSc, MRCVS, and

Wendy Vink, BVSc, MRCVS

 

blackpack Posted Today, 10:49 PM if its only one dog fair enough but as read they have got 4 to do

No offence intended and not directed at anyone, but it never fails to amaze me..... if people cannot afford the basic health care required for 4 dogs or any amount, then why do they have that many?

 

Plus, have you all forgotten Ginger French so soon?

MOLL.

 

 

 

you will have to ask them that, is it every 3 years that dogs have to be boosted as said as my vet makes me do it every year, is he conning me

[Guest MOLLY]

You need to look it up, its too long and complicated for me to explain. but there is research that suggests dogs do not require annual boosters.....but each dog is different, hence the titre test to determine a dogs levels of immunity. My vets are well aware of the literature and are fine with me boostering 3yrly. Some people dont believe in boostering at all after the initial jabs.

My 5 were tested earlier this year, out of the 5 one required full booster, she was 2.5yrs and had never had a booster since her initial injections. Three were ok for parvo but low on distemper, but the vet advised not to bother as it is almost completely eradicated now. And one had full immunity.

At the end of the day, you need to read up as much as possible the pros and cons of boosters and make your own decisions...your dog, your responsibility.

MOLL.

[Guest samstheman]

 

'Current knowledgte supports the statement that no vaccine is always safe, no vaccine is always protective and no vaccine is always indicated';

 

Ok, now that I've read the book, do I take it that the above quote includes vaccinations administered by qualified, listed vets and are therefore not guaranteed to be any safer than jabs obtained from other sources? I do not HAVE to vaccinate the 4 puppies I have left, I am ensuring that they have at least some protection before they are placed in their new homes,because, as I am sure we are all aware, not everyone bothers to vaccinate at all (irresponsible, I know, but true). I rest my case. :whistle:

[blackpack 70]

You need to look it up, its too long and complicated for me to explain. but there is research that suggests dogs do not require annual boosters.....but each dog is different, hence the titre test to determine a dogs levels of immunity. My vets are well aware of the literature and are fine with me boostering 3yrly. Some people dont believe in boostering at all after the initial jabs.

My 5 were tested earlier this year, out of the 5 one required full booster, she was 2.5yrs and had never had a booster since her initial injections. Three were ok for parvo but low on distemper, but the vet advised not to bother as it is almost completely eradicated now. And one had full immunity.

At the end of the day, you need to read up as much as possible the pros and cons of boosters and make your own decisions...your dog, your responsibility.

MOLL.

 

 

nice read cheers

[Guest samstheman]

nice read cheers

 

I agree. Nice to see people in this forum getting into a debate and voicing their opinions - it's what it is all about.

p.s., Molly, seems I have touched a nerve - appologies! (or are you on the blob................ :11: )

[Guest samstheman]

Plus, have you all forgotten Ginger French so soon?

MOLL.

 

Is this Ginger French the top Greyhound breeder who has judged and subsequently picked my dog as 'best in show' in recent years?