thanks again les any help is great as ive only been a couple of times so lots to learn yet , another thing i was looking to ask on here is does anyone know of anybody who does pigeon days closer to south wales ,like i said i dont mind paying a fee or supplying transport it just seems that ive got to travel 3 hours to get these offers i work in gloucester area and see loads of pigeons about i do ask farmers but they all seem to already have someone taking care of it , im not trying to scrounge somones land, i am trying to get my own permision . thanks again les